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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:30 am 
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benhall.1 wrote:
Out of curiosity, and sorry for the OT post, where does that spelling come from?

'Chantey' is a North American variant of 'shanty'. 'Chanty' is Scots for a chamber pot, so 'irreverent sea chanties' conjures up some interesting images!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:56 am 
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benhall.1 wrote:
I've never seen that spelling anywhere except on this site, but I see it every now and then here.


You can find plenty of examples of either spelling by googling for them.

Here's one, for example: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sea_chanty

~~

My edition of the Shorter OED has both spellings.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:32 am 
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s1m0n wrote:
benhall.1 wrote:
I've never seen that spelling anywhere except on this site, but I see it every now and then here.


You can find plenty of examples of either spelling by googling for them.

Here's one, for example: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sea_chanty

~~

My edition of the Shorter OED has both spellings.

I think it's a question of culture and what one was brought up with. Whenever I see the spelling "chanty" or "chantey", which is only on this site, in my experience, I always find myself wondering if it refers to something just slightly different from our "shanties". I'm still not sure whether it does or doesn't. I've seen some Youtube videos of Americans performing "chanties" and, whilst clearly having a connection with the shanties I was used to, the ones I've seen do seem to be markedly different in style and even content. I'm in work, so can't look any up for the moment. But I do think there is a difference, because there used to be, when I was a kid, such a clearly defined thing that was "sea shanties", and it wasn't the same. They've probably changed all over, for all I know, not just in the States. I'm not really up with the latest state of play on them, and would only know the type that was historically the classic, as far as we were concerned, British "sea shanties". We used to sing them in school.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:42 am 
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awildman wrote:
Health problems have interfered with my ability to play fiddle, so I have been doing a lot more whistle lately.


I have the same thing, with flute. After playing flute 35 years I just couldn't deal with the hand cramping any more, so around 10 years ago I sold off all my flutes and turned to Low Whistle as my primary ITM instrument.

Whistles and bagpipe chanters are held in a much more ergonomic position, with shoulders level, head straight, and both hands level and centered in front of your body. I can play those instruments just fine.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:48 am 
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Dan A. wrote:
I remember the first time I saw (a whistle). It was aboard USS Peleliu, during WESTPAC 2006. I was walking by the space to which my buddy Wesley was temporarily assigned, and he was playing a tin whistle.


It was an exciting "it's a small world" moment until I realised this was a different Wesley than the one I know, a Marine musician, who is a fine ITM fluteplayer. I can certainly imagine my buddy Wesley playing a whistle on board a ship!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:02 am 
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benhall.1 wrote:
I've seen some Youtube videos of Americans performing "chanties" and, whilst clearly having a connection with the shanties I was used to, the ones I've seen do seem to be markedly different in style and even content. I'm in work, so can't look any up for the moment. But I do think there is a difference, because there used to be, when I was a kid, such a clearly defined thing that was "sea shanties", and it wasn't the same.


The OED Thinks chanty (or chantey) and shanty are the same word. To my eyes, the C spelling reflects the word's french origin. It's possible that it has greater currency in North America.

I understand the true cognoscenti distinguish true shanties (nautical work songs with a "haul away!" chorus) from forebitters, which were songs sailors sang to amuse themselves at times when they're not on watch. Somewhere in the middle were songs that lightened the work of turning a capstan, a task that does not require a mass coordinated heave.

All three types are now likely to be seen collectively as one genre these days, confusingly also known as "sea shanties". Or chanties.

~~

Edited: It's also possible that NA usage has been influenced the use of the word "shanty" for a crudely and quickly built hut. It's been dying out since the turn of the 20th century. I think it was more common this side of the pond, although it does appear in the song Navigator ("and the shanty-towns rang with their songs and their fights") which seems pretty UK centric to me. I wonder if N Americans used "chanty" for the song to distinguish it from "shanty" the hut?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:33 am 
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I am in my first month of playing, but at least have a long background in music on many instruments from saxaphone and piano to harmonica and mountain dulcimer. Mostly I play bass guitar, for my usual rock cover gigs. The whistle is something I have added for my own personal enjoyment. So I started at my current age, 41.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:41 am 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
'Chantey' is a North American variant of 'shanty'. 'Chanty' is Scots for a chamber pot, so 'irreverent sea chanties' conjures up some interesting images!
In my end of Canada, and points east, I've seen only "shanty". Nova Scotia writer Thomas Raddall, in his story "Blind MacNair", uses "shanty". See, for example, https://downtownhalifax.ca/event/shanties-shandies-fundraiser-halifax-camerata-singers.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:55 am 
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I was just going by what Oxford told me:

North American
archaic

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:57 am 
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s1m0n wrote:
benhall.1 wrote:
I've seen some Youtube videos of Americans performing "chanties" and, whilst clearly having a connection with the shanties I was used to, the ones I've seen do seem to be markedly different in style and even content. I'm in work, so can't look any up for the moment. But I do think there is a difference, because there used to be, when I was a kid, such a clearly defined thing that was "sea shanties", and it wasn't the same.


The OED Thinks chanty (or chantey) and shanty are the same word. To my eyes, the C spelling reflects the word's french origin. It's possible that it has greater currency in North America.

I understand the true cognoscenti distinguish true shanties (nautical work songs with a "haul away!" chorus) from forebitters, which were songs sailors sang to amuse themselves at times when they're not on watch. Somewhere in the middle were songs that lightened the work of turning a capstan, a task that does not require a mass coordinated heave.

All three types are now likely to be seen collectively as one genre these days, confusingly also known as "sea shanties". Or chanties.

~~

Edited: It's also possible that NA usage has been influenced the use of the word "shanty" for a crudely and quickly built hut. It's been dying out since the turn of the 20th century. I think it was more common this side of the pond, although it does appear in the song Navigator ("and the shanty-towns rang with their songs and their fights") which seems pretty UK centric to me. I wonder if N Americans used "chanty" for the song to distinguish it from "shanty" the hut?



Well, you guys have delved deeper into the word than I ever would have ;) I was gonna say "I dunno..that's just the way I learned to spell it. I could be wrong." :P

While perhaps not a "shanty" in the strictly historical sense, here's an example of the Fish's music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAOlJ3TCHTs

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:25 am 
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pancelticpiper wrote:
I can certainly imagine my buddy Wesley playing a whistle on board a ship!

Hearing a good musician on board ship would have been nice. Ships, however, don't offer many good places for a budding musician to learn without subjecting other Sailors to the sometimes awful sounds that come with the learning process!

benhall.1 wrote:
Out of curiosity, and sorry for the OT post, where does that spelling come from? "Sea chanties"? I've never seen that spelling anywhere except on this site, but I see it every now and then here.

With Peter's explanation of another meaning for "chanty," I suppose it's no wonder that "shanty" is the more frequently used spelling! The word is spelled "chantey" in the tutorial book that came with my Feadóg. I thought it odd, and had never seen that spelling before, but understood the meaning. When I've learned to play the sea shanty/chanty/chantey in that book, I will dedicate it to David Griffin.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:18 am 
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About the chanty/shanty thing, studying linguistics makes me hardly notice such stuff. There are so many things like that when words get borrowed from other languages and such, French chant is pronounced more or less like English shan't, etc.

Especially so here in the American Southwest with so many Spanish speakers around who don't make the ch/sh distinction like English speakers do, where church can sound like /shursh/ and shoe and chew sound the same.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:33 am 
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pancelticpiper wrote:
French chant is pronounced more or less like English shan't, etc.
Eh? Do you just mean the initial "ch"? 'Cos the rest of the word is radically different ...

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:15 am 
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benhall.1 wrote:
pancelticpiper wrote:
French chant is pronounced more or less like English shan't, etc.
Eh? Do you just mean the initial "ch"? 'Cos the rest of the word is radically different ...


Not over here. Except we don't really say "shan't" much. It's more a word we read. But if we say it, it's very like "chant", in french. We don't have the vowel that brits put into "shan't".

Incidentally, regardless of spelling, chantey and shanty both sound exactly the same.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:36 am 
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s1m0n wrote:
benhall.1 wrote:
pancelticpiper wrote:
French chant is pronounced more or less like English shan't, etc.
Eh? Do you just mean the initial "ch"? 'Cos the rest of the word is radically different ...


Not over here. Except we don't really say "shan't" much. It's more a word we read. But if we say it, it's very like "chant", in french. We don't have the vowel that brits put into "shan't".

Incidentally, regardless of spelling, chantey and shanty both sound exactly the same.

How about the "t" sound? And the "n" sound? Both also showing extreme differences between French "chant" and English "shan't". Well, there isn't really a "t" sound as such in the French word "chant".

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