octaves

The Ultimate On-Line Whistle Community. If you find one more ultimater, let us know.
sobertogod1
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:14 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Hi im 70 yrs old and play harmonics diatonic and chromatic. Just started penny whistle. Im still struggling with the octave play but the wind for harp and whistle are same what apart. i have been blessed with a good ear but dont read music. i would love to find a teacher.

octaves

Post by sobertogod1 »

Hello mates i just started penny whistles and the illusive octaves are giving me fits. it seems there is a first octave air flow seems to come from back of throat?? Also 2nd octave seems to come from embouchure to some extent?? Appreciate any tips to regulate these over blows.
The octaves up to c# are not so bad but the middle d is a bugger.
Thanks for all your wisdom. :poke:
User avatar
s1m0n
Posts: 10069
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:17 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: The Inside Passage

Re: octaves

Post by s1m0n »

No. Control of octaves comes entirely from air pressure. Blow softly, you get the bottom octave. Harder, and you'll jump up into the second octave. Blow really hard and you'll hit the third, which will hit you back.

As you gain experience in playing, your diaphragm's muscle memory will learn exactly how hard to push for every note, and you'll never have to think of it again. You get there by playing and thinking about the quality of the sound you're making. Not by thinking about how hard you're blowing. Let your unconscious sort that out.
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis
Tunborough
Posts: 1419
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:59 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: Southwestern Ontario

Re: octaves

Post by Tunborough »

And middle D, fingered as OXXXXX (only the top finger off) should take only a bit more air speed than C#. It should be hard not to blow it as middle D.
User avatar
brewerpaul
Posts: 7300
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: Clifton Park, NY
Contact:

Re: octaves

Post by brewerpaul »

A small amount of tongueing can help start second octave notes.
Got wood?
http://www.Busmanwhistles.com
Let me custom make one for you!
User avatar
pancelticpiper
Posts: 5291
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Playing Scottish and Irish music in California for 45 years.
These days many discussions are migrating to Facebook but I prefer the online chat forum format.
Location: WV to the OC

Re: octaves

Post by pancelticpiper »

On high whistle but especially on low whistle and flute I start off people without tonguing.

When learning to get around on the gamut of the whistle or flute the problem happens of moving two or more fingers at the same time (say, with intervals of a 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc) and beginners have the tendency of using the moment of silence created by tonguing to hide their sloppy note-changes. Fine if they're going to play staccato the rest of their lives, but a fundamental disservice if they ever intend to play legato.

Say, playing

D F# A d f# a f# d A F# D

on a single breath, legato, with no tonguing or other break between notes, and all the note-changes clean (without intervening notes).

With octaves too I think it harms a beginner's progress to have them tongue everything from the get-go.

They will attain better breath-control if they practice doing octaves without the crutch of tonguing, I think it's safe to say. Tonguing, later, can become a stylistic choice, to be used when it sounds right, rather than an engrained ever-present enabler.

So, I have people do the following, each line done slowly and on one breath, legato, with no tonguing or other breaks:

D d D d D d D (using no change in fingering)

E e E e E e E

and so on up the scale ending with

B b B b B b B.

C natural and C# are outliers somewhat, in the tradition high C natural and high C# are usually approached from high B.

More challenging, once you can do octaves from D to B, is the following:

D E D F# D G D A D B D C# D d D e D f# D g D a D b D

done legato, no tonguing or other breaks. Yes take breaths when you have to! But better to take them in the middle of the notes, so you don't skip practicing the note-changes.

Going from a nice solid Bottom D to a sweet high b and back, on a single breath without tonguing, is challenging but when mastered pays the dividend of you being able to go anywhere from anywhere on the flute or whistle without having to mask the note-change with tonguing (within the traditional D-b range).
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
Polara Pat
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:01 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: In an effort to ease from lurker to forum member; I'm hoping that this elite gang of whistlers will help this very green player to advance to the next stage. My current stage is slightly below novice and is only permitted in the garage like the dog I am. Oh yah, not a robot.

Re: octaves

Post by Polara Pat »

pancelticpiper wrote:On high whistle but especially on low whistle and flute I start off people without tonguing.

When learning to get around on the gamut of the whistle or flute the problem happens of moving two or more fingers at the same time (say, with intervals of a 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc) and beginners have the tendency of using the moment of silence created by tonguing to hide their sloppy note-changes. Fine if they're going to play staccato the rest of their lives, but a fundamental disservice if they ever intend to play legato.

Say, playing

D F# A d f# a f# d A F# D

on a single breath, legato, with no tonguing or other break between notes, and all the note-changes clean (without intervening notes).

With octaves too I think it harms a beginner's progress to have them tongue everything from the get-go.

They will attain better breath-control if they practice doing octaves without the crutch of tonguing, I think it's safe to say. Tonguing, later, can become a stylistic choice, to be used when it sounds right, rather than an engrained ever-present enabler.

So, I have people do the following, each line done slowly and on one breath, legato, with no tonguing or other breaks:

D d D d D d D (using no change in fingering)

E e E e E e E

and so on up the scale ending with

B b B b B b B.

C natural and C# are outliers somewhat, in the tradition high C natural and high C# are usually approached from high B.

More challenging, once you can do octaves from D to B, is the following:

D E D F# D G D A D B D C# D d D e D f# D g D a D b D

done legato, no tonguing or other breaks. Yes take breaths when you have to! But better to take them in the middle of the notes, so you don't skip practicing the note-changes.

Going from a nice solid Bottom D to a sweet high b and back, on a single breath without tonguing, is challenging but when mastered pays the dividend of you being able to go anywhere from anywhere on the flute or whistle without having to mask the note-change with tonguing (within the traditional D-b range).
At the risk of high jacking, this seems like a great exercise. I plan on integrating this into my daily regiment. Thanks Richard.
jpwinstruments
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:55 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: none, this information is none. none, this information is none none, this information is none none, this information is none none, this information is none none, this information is none
Location: none

Re: octaves

Post by jpwinstruments »

I often see people saying blow harder to play the second octave, but what I like to tell people is to blow faster. I think it can help you develop good technique by thinking about it that way.
Brus
Posts: 513
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:51 pm
antispam: No

Re: octaves

Post by Brus »

jpwinstruments wrote:I often see people saying blow harder to play the second octave, but what I like to tell people is to blow faster. I think it can help you develop good technique by thinking about it that way.
When I saw this advice (in the big Grey Larsen book) and started doing it, the quality of my second octave notes on all my whistle improved immensely - without tweaking!
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur. (Anything is more impressive if you say it in Latin)
jpwinstruments
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:55 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: none, this information is none. none, this information is none none, this information is none none, this information is none none, this information is none none, this information is none
Location: none

Re: octaves

Post by jpwinstruments »

Thats great news Brus! I have also seen some threads here about clogging in whistles. Try placing your tongue on the bottom of the mouthpiece then wrap your mouth around the beak as you would normally. This raises the tongue in the mouth and the air expelled from the lungs flows over the tongue surface before it gets into the instrument. This helps to catch moisture before it gets into the airway. I also believe that it helps to cool the temperature of the air from the lungs. For the majority of players, clogging results in moisture condensing on on the fipple floor (in the airway).
Dan A.
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:19 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I can only hope that my proficiency with the whistle is steadily improving. A few of my whistles get a workout on an almost daily basis. And I'm almost certainly afflicted with WhOAD.
Location: Detroit Metro

Re: octaves

Post by Dan A. »

s1m0n wrote:Control of octaves comes entirely from air pressure. Blow softly, you get the bottom octave. Harder, and you'll jump up into the second octave. Blow really hard and you'll hit the third, which will hit you back.
If I understand this correctly (bearing in mind that I'm still new to the whistle, can't read music, and am probably also lacking in other fundamentals), a fingering notation with a + underneath denotes second octave? And what happens when trying to hit the third octave and you get hit back? Awful sound or some other undesired effect?
User avatar
s1m0n
Posts: 10069
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:17 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: The Inside Passage

Re: octaves

Post by s1m0n »

Dan A. wrote:
s1m0n wrote:Control of octaves comes entirely from air pressure. Blow softly, you get the bottom octave. Harder, and you'll jump up into the second octave. Blow really hard and you'll hit the third, which will hit you back.
If I understand this correctly (bearing in mind that I'm still new to the whistle, can't read music, and am probably also lacking in other fundamentals), a fingering notation with a + underneath denotes second octave? And what happens when trying to hit the third octave and you get hit back? Awful sound or some other undesired effect?
I was being flippant. The third octave can be fairly piercing. It's ok for a passing high note, but I wouldn't want to play an entire tune up there. I don't know what fingering notation you're using, or what it means by the + sign.
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis
Dan A.
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:19 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I can only hope that my proficiency with the whistle is steadily improving. A few of my whistles get a workout on an almost daily basis. And I'm almost certainly afflicted with WhOAD.
Location: Detroit Metro

Re: octaves

Post by Dan A. »

s1m0n wrote:I don't know what fingering notation you're using, or what it means by the + sign.
I am using the book that came with my Walton's Irish D Whistle. (Likely not the best resource, but it's the only printed one I have at the moment.) In "The Basics of Whistle Playing," the text states that "a + sign under the diagrams indicates that you must blow harder to achieve the higher notes."
User avatar
s1m0n
Posts: 10069
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:17 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: The Inside Passage

Re: octaves

Post by s1m0n »

In that case, yes, it likely does mean second octave.
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis
Dan A.
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:19 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I can only hope that my proficiency with the whistle is steadily improving. A few of my whistles get a workout on an almost daily basis. And I'm almost certainly afflicted with WhOAD.
Location: Detroit Metro

Re: octaves

Post by Dan A. »

I perused the book a little more in-depth and found a diagram of the fingering notations paired up with the notes they represent. The two notes that are giving me fits right now are identified as high D (all but the hole nearest the fipple covered) and more especially high E (all but the hole farthest from the fipple covered). If I understand it correctly, those are both second octave?
User avatar
s1m0n
Posts: 10069
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:17 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: The Inside Passage

Re: octaves

Post by s1m0n »

Yes. They're the two lowest notes of the second octave.

Sometimes beginners 'find' the second octave before they find the first. This can happen if you blew too forcefully at the beginning. Try holding down the first two fingers (xxo ooo) and blowing so gently no note sounds. Gradually increase pressure until you hear a note. Is the same note you usually get with this fingering?
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis
Post Reply