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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:18 am 
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In the Ochs tutorial, at the tune Constant Billy, Ochs recommends half-holing 2nd octave C-natural but also suggests looking at the fingering chart in the back of the book for an alternate fingering.

This is oxo xxx.

Has anyone else tried this? The difficulty (challenge!) I'm running into is that I'm keyed up to use lots of air for the 3rd-octave notes in the tune but this one seems to demand less air or it won't work ("won't work" as in "just air with no note coming out").

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:27 am 
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Every note needs a unique amount of air. It's useless to try and think your way to success, so you need to get this info into muscle memory, and only way to do that is practice.

So play the note, alone and in the context of the melody. Listen to how it sounds. Play it a lot more times. Eventually, your brain will associate that sound with those finger positions and the right amount of breath. Then, you've mastered it.

~~

I don't know the tune, but unless it's a prominent note, you can likely get away with playing 0X0 000. For a passing note, that'll more than suffice. If the tune calls you to really get a clean C nat, slow way down and practice until it's instinctive. No amount of insight can substitute for practice.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:09 am 
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This tune? The highest note is a G

https://thesession.org/tunes/14338

Perhaps Ochs' version is put up into a higher key.

If it's the same tune, note that the highest note is approached from its lower neighbor-tone.

High C in Irish dance tunes is fairly rare, but when it does occur it's usually approached by its lower neighbor-tone, B.

In these cases I usually half-hole it; I'm already at B, all I need to do is crack open the C# hole a tiny bit.

BTW it's one of those cross-instrument things you run into with ITM sometimes: many trad Irish fiddlers don't shift, in other words they stay in First Position. High B up on the E string is played with the little finger, and you ain't got any more! So I've seen them sort of bend from High B up to High C. The finger-motion may be different than on whistle, but the sound and effect is similar.

In tunes where High C is approached from a note other than High B I usually use the crossfingering oxo xxx that you mention.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:50 am 
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pancelticpiper wrote:
This tune? The highest note is a G

https://thesession.org/tunes/14338

Perhaps Ochs' version is put up into a higher key.

If it's the same tune, note that the highest note is approached from its lower neighbor-tone.

High C in Irish dance tunes is fairly rare, but when it does occur it's usually approached by its lower neighbor-tone, B.

In these cases I usually half-hole it; I'm already at B, all I need to do is crack open the C# hole a tiny bit.

BTW it's one of those cross-instrument things you run into with ITM sometimes: many trad Irish fiddlers don't shift, in other words they stay in First Position. High B up on the E string is played with the little finger, and you ain't got any more! So I've seen them sort of bend from High B up to High C. The finger-motion may be different than on whistle, but the sound and effect is similar.

In tunes where High C is approached from a note other than High B I usually use the crossfingering oxo xxx that you mention.


I don't have the tunebook handy, but he plays it way up there on the whistle. Someone has a recording here
http://tinwhistle.breqwas.net/files/Bil ... 0Billy.mp3

In my experience, fingering notes above high B on the whistle tend to vary from whistle to whistle. You'll probably need to experiment to find what works best for yours.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:37 am 
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pancelticpiper wrote:
Perhaps Ochs' version is put up into a higher key.


Yes, it's in a section of the tutorial expressly on third-octave notes, and goes to third-octave G.


Quote:
In these cases I usually half-hole it; I'm already at B, all I need to do is crack open the C# hole a tiny bit.


Ochs actually says that's the best way, but points to this fingering as a alternate.

Quote:
In tunes where High C is approached from a note other than High B I usually use the crossfingering oxo xxx that you mention.


I can see how it would be useful to have, especially getting from c-nat to d quickly (and/or vice versa) - much easier than with the half-holed note.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:54 pm 
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[quote="Brus"]
a section of the tutorial expressly on third-octave notes, and goes to third-octave G.
[quote]

I wonder why on earth.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:55 pm 
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Brus wrote:
This one [OXOXXX fingering] seems to demand less air or it won't work ("won't work" as in "just air with no note coming out").
Have you tried a slight alteration, like OXOXXO? I know some whistles are very touchy about OXOOOO (which tends to be sharp of C-nat anyway). Others won't play a reliable second-octave C# unless you finger it OOOOOX.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:10 pm 
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pancelticpiper wrote:
Brus wrote:
a section of the tutorial expressly on third-octave notes, and goes to third-octave G.


I wonder why on earth.

He has some marches to be played a la fife-in the 2nd and 3rd octaves.

Gotta hear those signal tunes above the roar of battle,y'know.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:35 pm 
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pancelticpiper wrote:
I wonder why on earth.

Because it works, it's effective and there's no law restricting the whistle to sub-two-octave conceptions of Irishness.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:46 pm 
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The OXO XXX is a common C-nat variant, and it works very well on my Killarney for both first and second octave (and gives me C-nat rolls). OXX XXX give me a clean high D. It takes some practice to play the cross-fingered C-nat smoothly, as has already been said.

I have a few tunes where I need these higher notes. Eileen Curran is wonderful in A-dor on D-whistle, which needs the high C-nat, and Tommy's Tarbulkas uses the high D. As noted many fiddle players are not comfortable using second position, so Eileen Curran is usually dropped to G-dor (C-whistle), and Tommy's Tarbulkas is usually played on a B-flat whistle.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:53 am 
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OXO OOO seems to work on some of mine for second octave C nat. But I'd still rather half-hole it. I don't venture into the third octave on whistle. Too shrieky. Whoever's playing it.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:55 am 
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tstermitz wrote:
The OXO XXX is a common C-nat variant, and it works very well on my Killarney for both first and second octave (and gives me C-nat rolls). OXX XXX give me a clean high D.
On many whistles, OXXOOO gives an in-tune high D without having to push as hard as OXXXXX.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:38 am 
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Just learn to half hole. In addition to giving you a good Cnat, you can also play other useful notes like Fnat,Bb,G#. It just takes a bit of practice, and there are no weird fingerings to learn, which may or may not transfer to different whistles.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:06 pm 
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benhall.1 wrote:
I don't venture into the third octave on whistle. Too shrieky. Whoever's playing it.

Some of these tunes in the Ochs book sound just great up there... sonically fife-style, as The Lurking Fear suggests. Can't remember what else is there, but I've always thought The Girl I Left Behind Me particularly effective in that top register G key.

Tunborough wrote:
On many whistles, OXXOOO gives an in-tune high D without having to push as hard as OXXXXX.

To me, top D fingerings are determined by tuning more than pressure (which I'm not sure varies that much between them). I treat OXXOOO as standard till proven otherwise, but find some whistles require OXXXXX or even 'leaking T1' versions of XXXOOO or XXXXXX to get it right. So use whichever the whistle needs despite a strong preference for the first two and strongest for the first.

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