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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:38 am 
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pancelticpiper wrote:
My point was only that if the idea was to play the tune in duple rhythm with a beat occurring in the middle of each bar it doesn't require extensive reworking of the tune, but can be done at the drop of a hat.

But it's not just a beat occurring in the middle of each bar, it's the pervading accentuation. To get a plausible gavotte out of Greensleeves, you'd have to drop the initial single-note anacrusis (as done in 'Greensleeves to a Ground') and shift all the barlines, like so:

Image

And that's not bad at all, but arguably more than the drop of a hat!

Edit (two and a half hours later): and still not sure it's 'right' because the implied harmony's now working against the bars. So I might want to harmonise that with 'irregular' (for Greensleeves) chords on every half bar to justify/bring out the 'new' rhythm, e.g. NC | C / G / | Em / Am / | Dm / G / | C / etc. And you know what's going to happen now? I'm probably going to go and write the bl**dy gavotte!

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:31 pm 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
And you know what's going to happen now? I'm probably going to go and write the bl**dy gavotte!

So... couldn't post it earlier because C&F seems to have been down, but here's my attempt. It's not Bach, but (noting this is exported audio from Sibelius, not a human playing a harpsichord!)...

http://www.petestack.com/music/audio/greensleeves-the-gavotte.mp3

Have to say that, despite my best efforts to shift the accent, the normal way's just so strongly ingrained that I'm still struggling to hear the beat in the right place. So do I think you can turn Greensleeves into a gavotte at the drop of a hat? Absolutely not, but I tried!

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:05 pm 
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I was thinking earlier, and even more so now, with your three-part realisation ... I wonder if it would help if, instead of c2d2 | at the start, you had cBcd | . I just thought it might help in that accent shift. You'd have to do something similar elsewhere, though not necessarily everywhere possible, if you see what I mean.

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Hmmm, dunno, but tried all sorts of things and probably spent enough time on it!

You'll have spotted the model in the G major French Suite Gavotte?

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:15 pm 
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I had already tried working quavers round the minims starting the second section phrases, but didn't like it.

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:30 pm 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
You'll have spotted the model in the G major French Suite Gavotte?

Honestly ... I though I recognised it, but couldn't quite put my finger on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:36 pm 
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benhall.1 wrote:
wonder if it would help if, instead of c2d2 | at the start, you had cBcd | . I just thought it might help in that accent shift.

Just tried it...

Quote:
You'd have to do something similar elsewhere, though not necessarily everywhere possible, if you see what I mean.

Along with gfef | or gfga | (which are not orders I'd tried before) instead of g4 | . Sounds OK (as do similar divisions elsewhere if, as expected, not everywhere!), but still leaves me with the same fundamental problem as my original, which is that I hear the beat right when following the score, but not without. So suspect Greensleeves just doesn't want to be a gavotte even if we've got close!

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:38 pm 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
Peter Duggan wrote:
And you know what's going to happen now? I'm probably going to go and write the bl**dy gavotte!

So... couldn't post it earlier because C&F seems to have been down, but here's my attempt. It's not Bach, but (noting this is exported audio from Sibelius, not a human playing a harpsichord!)...

http://www.petestack.com/music/audio/greensleeves-the-gavotte.mp3


Sounds lovely! You beat me to it!

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:12 pm 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
but still leaves me with the same fundamental problem as my original, which is that I hear the beat right when following the score, but not without.

Found myself today thinking it's maybe not just 'my' gavotte when this (more Bach) popped into my head:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9oaS-zvIm8

But also acutely aware of the function of harmonic rhythm here.

Quote:
So suspect Greensleeves just doesn't want to be a gavotte even if we've got close!

So the continuing problems with Greensleeves seem to be 1. harmonic rhythm and 2. the stress patterns of lyrics it's difficult to dismiss once associated with the melody. And, while I think I just about got round the harmonic rhythm up to the mid-section (C major) cadences, the final (A minor) cadences are really still half a bar too early with no obvious dodge and the continuing bass movement just a limited attempt at disguise.

I've also tried some other tweaks tonight like sharpening all the Fs (which I like better in some ways and not in others) and playing with more quaver movement as suggested by Ben, but, since neither really has a significant effect on the perceived beat driven primarily by the factors outlined above, think it's better just left without any more passing notes or divisions disguising the clearest semblance of the known tune.

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:22 am 
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and then there's Cathal's way with it.......................... https://thesession.org/tunes/8170 :)

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