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 Post subject: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:27 am 
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I read on YouTube that there are two ways that Greensleeves is usually played, the stately dance type of performance, (Andante I suppose) and a Gavotte, dance type of playing. Well I like both and I decided to have a crack at the faster, gavotte like section. I struggled to get the half holed bottom note, and after playing clarinet every day for a few weeks I noticed that I am blowing too hard on tin whistle/recorder. Takes some getting used to when you switch instruments.
I also feel I'd like to try a low whistle...

https://youtu.be/RNkIMH0nh88

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:37 am 
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Greensleeves can never be a gavotte unless you make big changes because a gavotte's in common time starting on the half bar. But if you like an interesting, up-tempo Greensleeves, check out 'Greensleeves to a Ground' from 'The Division Flute' of 1706 if you don't already know it. There are lots of YouTube performances, but here's a good one by Michael Schneider on what I assume to be an A=415 'fourth flute' (descant/soprano recorder in B flat) to get you going:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV9wbOccZzg

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:27 pm 
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You do also realise that both your versions are in the same metre at the same tempo and what you've done in the second is simply added divisions (as done in 'The Division Flute')?

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:04 pm 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
Greensleeves can never be a gavotte unless you make big changes because a gavotte's in common time...


Seems to me that it's very common for the same tunes to be played both in 3/4 and 4/4.

A perfect example is the tune which appears as a hymn-tune (KINGSFOLD) and a Christmas carol and as a folk-song in 4/4 but also is encountered as a folk-song in 3/4.

I used to be an avid Scottish Country Dancer and it was common (at least back in the 1980s) to dance Strathspey steps to song-airs in 4/4, many of which appear in the Highland piping tradition as tunes with the feel of a waltz. (The Highland pipers don't regard them as waltzes, but you can dance the waltz to them.)

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:52 pm 
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pancelticpiper wrote:
Peter Duggan wrote:
Greensleeves can never be a gavotte unless you make big changes because a gavotte's in common time...


Seems to me that it's very common for the same tunes to be played both in 3/4 and 4/4.

A perfect example is the tune which appears as a hymn-tune (KINGSFOLD) and a Christmas carol and as a folk-song in 4/4 but also is encountered as a folk-song in 3/4.

I used to be an avid Scottish Country Dancer and it was common (at least back in the 1980s) to dance Strathspey steps to song-airs in 4/4, many of which appear in the Highland piping tradition as tunes with the feel of a waltz. (The Highland pipers don't regard them as waltzes, but you can dance the waltz to them.)

Maybe, but have you tried to make Greensleeves sound like a gavotte? I can't do it. I can just about make the tune go into 4/4 time, but I can't get the half bar anacrusis and, even if I could, I can't figure out at all how to make the rhythm remotely similar to a gavotte. Maybe it's just my lack of imagination, and I'm willing to be convinced, if you can show me how to do it ...

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:23 am 
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pancelticpiper wrote:
Peter Duggan wrote:
Greensleeves can never be a gavotte unless you make big changes because a gavotte's in common time...


Seems to me that it's very common for the same tunes to be played both in 3/4 and 4/4.

For sure, but I also said 'starting on the half bar'!

benhall.1 wrote:
Maybe, but have you tried to make Greensleeves sound like a gavotte? I can't do it.

Me neither. It'll go to a bourrée both easily and naturally (the first half anyway), but not a gavotte. And AuLoS303's 'gavotte' version is neither, but just divisions of the regular metre.

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:30 am 
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This piece that I was learning on piano caused a bit of discussion on a fb piano group because I was informed it's not a Gavotte because it's in regular 4/4 time, yet it's in a piano tuition book!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BV0RB6GF3_w/

https://youtu.be/pRZ0TPFCaos

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:23 am 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
..... here's a good one by Michael Schneider...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV9wbOccZzg


I really enjoyed that, thanks for posting the link.


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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:37 am 
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D Mc wrote:
Peter Duggan wrote:
..... here's a good one by Michael Schneider...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV9wbOccZzg


I really enjoyed that, thanks for posting the link.

Yes, it was good, wasn't it? Thanks Peter. :thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:32 am 
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I can immediately play Greensleeves in 4/4 in two different feels, one feel making the halfnote/quarternote bars a dotted halfnote/quarternote and the other feel making the halfnote/quarternote bars halfnote/halfnote (really a 2/4 feel).

I can also without having to think twice about it play Greensleeves in 7/8 or 5/4. You just get the new groove going and play the tune in it.

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:16 am 
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pancelticpiper wrote:
I can immediately play Greensleeves in 4/4 in two different feels, one feel making the halfnote/quarternote bars a dotted halfnote/quarternote and the other feel making the halfnote/quarternote bars halfnote/halfnote (really a 2/4 feel).

Which latter sounds like my bourrée? (Where I'd be thinking & | 1 & 2 &a | 1 & 2 etc. in cut or 2/2 time.)

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I can also without having to think twice about it play Greensleeves in 7/8 or 5/4. You just get the new groove going and play the tune in it.

While I can also play it with any number of beats you like and am pretty sure Ben can too, our point is not number of beats to the bar but it simply not sitting comfortably in gavotte rhythm (where you've more than just 4/4 to take into account).

benhall.1 wrote:
Yes, it was good, wasn't it? Thanks Peter. :thumbsup:

I've known (and played) the piece since my school days, but hadn't encountered Michael Schneider's version till I went looking for a good example for this thread. And liked it so much I went looking for the CD only to find it's from a now-deleted eight-CD set I'd probably have bought on the spot had it still been available at a sensible price:
https://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=C49550

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:38 am 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
I've known (and played) the piece since my school days, but hadn't encountered Michael Schneider's version till I went looking for a good example for this thread. And liked it so much I went looking for the CD only to find it's from a now-deleted eight-CD set I'd probably have bought on the spot had it still been available at a sensible price:
https://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=C49550
You can still listen to the whole set from the Spotify catalogue: https://open.spotify.com/album/6F0tR2aLQWXTO0LlrHKgbb. Greensleeves is at https://open.spotify.com/track/6qT8Vl4eXdzc14kQpuIBjv.


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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:55 am 
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Sure, and I will in time because there's a fair bit of repertoire there I'd like to hear. But sometimes I like to buy stuff too... or, to put it another way, I prefer listening to CDs on my hi-fi and having the full package, sleeve notes etc. when it's stuff I want to keep rather than trying once or twice.

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:01 pm 
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I enjoy Greensleeves with a little swing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVMeDPemvgA

Sorry, couldn't find the version from the Pennywhistle Tapes. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Greensleeves, 2 ways
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:57 pm 
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My point was only that if the idea was to play the tune in duple rhythm with a beat occurring in the middle of each bar it doesn't require extensive reworking of the tune, but can be done at the drop of a hat.

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