OT: Where to get Angel "Renaissance" recorder?

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 10:51 pm

Does anyone know where I might be able to get an alto Angel Renaissance recorder? They are made in Korea, [ http://www.angelco.com ].

Angel Baroque recorders can be had from several sources.

But the "Renaissance" or "Halo" recorder is the one I'm looking for:

Peripole sells them in bulk to schools [ http://www.peripolebergerault.com ].

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 11:07 pm

Why would you care where to get one, Walden?

Chuck_Clark · Post by **Chuck_Clark** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 11:16 pm

Walden

Your message sent me digging. Back before I got serious about whistles, I bought an Angel recorder on eBay - but it appears to be a Baroque. It actually looks pretty much like that one. except that it only has a single band and the band is white metal rather than yellow. Not at all like the small inset baroque photo you included.

The only reason I mention it is a question - what's the difference between the two?

Can you tell I don't know from recorders?

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 11:43 pm

Chuck_Clark wrote:It actually looks pretty much like that one. except that it only has a single band and the band is white metal rather than yellow. Not at all like the small inset baroque photo you included.

I think you describe the soprano version of the "Renaissance" or "Halo" recorder.

Both the "Baroque" and the "Halo" recorders are made in the English Baroque fingering system, as well as the German system.

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 3:01 am

What next to kill me
China baby seals do Megs
Now Korean Swaynes

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 6:09 am

Looks pretty pseudo-baroque to me. Renaissance recorders have a cylindrdical bore rather than a conical one, resulting in a larger looking bottom hole than the one pictured. Also, they typically have larger fingerholes, and the bottom two holes are ( I think) not double like the one pictured here. Actually, a Renaissance soprano is a LOT like a D whistle, but with a thumb hole. A Tenor is close to a low D.
This whistle resembles a Moeck student model recorder a LOT.

Chuck_Clark · Post by **Chuck_Clark** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 6:50 am

Walden

That's precisely it. Surprisingly for a school instrument, which the seller told me it was, it came in a very nice zippered vinyl case. The markings on the case read 'Peripole: "Angel" Soprano Recorder Model PB600, Baroque Fingering, Made in Korea". The recorder is two-piece, the workmanship is excellent compared to modern plastic recorders.

Paul,

The bore is conical and of course it has all those holes. The head is, of course, large compared to the exterior diameter of the tube, but no more so than on a Reyburn whistle. Oddly, the overall impression is somehow whistle-like. and the tone is more reminiscent of a Sweet whistle than the wooden recorder with which I compared it.

So, what's the difference between baroque fingering and that of a whistle, so to speak? And if this one is 'baroque' what other fingering system exists?

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 2:07 am

brewerpaul wrote:Looks pretty pseudo-baroque to me. Renaissance recorders have a cylindrdical bore rather than a conical one, resulting in a larger looking bottom hole than the one pictured. Also, they typically have larger fingerholes, and the bottom two holes are ( I think) not double like the one pictured here. Actually, a Renaissance soprano is a LOT like a D whistle, but with a thumb hole. A Tenor is close to a low D.
This whistle resembles a Moeck student model recorder a LOT.

Yes, you are right. I also noticed the resemblance to the alto of the older series of Flauto Rondo Moeck recorders. I used the term "Renaissance" in quotes because it isn't a Renaissance reproduction. But that's what the maker calls it, apparently in reference to its straight profile rather than its bore, and I wanted to distinguish it from the other Angel recorders.

There's also a lighter brown model, which looks nice, too, though I don't think Peripole distributes them. Trophy has what looks like the soprano version of these.

Chuck_Clark wrote:So, what's the difference between baroque fingering and that of a whistle, so to speak? And if this one is 'baroque' what other fingering system exists?

There were various fingering systems in the past. It wasn't standardised. Most modern recorders use one of two systems, the English Baroque system, and the German. The English Baroque system was used by Arnold Dolmetsch in his recorders, and is compatible with the fingering chart found in the 1700 English book, "The Complete Instructor for the Flute, The Second Book." The German system was developed in Germany, and has some notable differences, being more similar to the fingering of the saxophone. Historical recorders of the Renaissance had several differences in fingering, which were greater in comparison to the Baroque fingering than the difference between the two modern systems.

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:29 am

After perseverance, I found that they can be ordered individually from Peripole-Bergerault. Only US$11.75, it is a beautiful instrument, in dark brown matte finish. It has a great sound, and is easy playing. It's spot-on in tune with the Yamaha plastic recorder, which sells for $25.95, and, unlike the Yamaha, it has a curved windway. Makes a great alternative to my wooden Zamir/Gill alto. The rings appear to be of brass, rather than the silver-color ones of the older sopranos in this series. It came with a zippered case, joint grease, a fingering chart, and a Halo hanger, which is a specially balanced neck strap, that allows it to hang around the neck in an upright position, when not in use.

EDITED TO ADD: A clip. Not my best playing or recording, perhaps, but it is on the Angel alto recorder.

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:38 am

I did some checking on recorder fingering systems, and it looks like the German system is fairly similar to whistle fingering. The sources I read commented that the German system is tends to be less in tune than the baroque system.

Any comments?

I'm not interested in playing many different keys or playing chromatic music. I'm very happy with the whistle scheme where each whistle is best suited to certain keys, and would enjoy having an easy to play recorder or two that plays similarly to whistles.

Best wishes,
Jerry

NicoMoreno · Post by **NicoMoreno** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 4:28 pm

The German fingering system is actually LESS like a whistle: the F natural is played xxx x which on a whistle is F# , while on the Baroque you have to fork it xxx x0x which is closer to a whistle (at least most high D's I've played can give something close to a F nat like this) **

** all fingering includes covered thumbhole!

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 4:47 pm

F# and C# would be different, but what looked similar to me is the fact that you go up the scale by simply uncovering holes working up from the bottom. No?

That to me is more intuitive than what I believe I remember of the baroque fingering system, which (if I remember correctly) requires more cross fingering to play the diatonic C scale.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Patrick · Post by **Patrick** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 5:05 pm

Y'know, Walden, that has to be the prettiest recorder I have seen in a price range I could afford. Thanks for bringing this up.

Now, I just need to convince my long-suffering wife to let me order it!

By the way, I could not find prices on the web site. Did you have to call them for the prices? Or did I miss something on the website?

-Patrick

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 6:24 pm

Patrick wrote:By the way, I could not find prices on the web site. Did you have to call them for the prices? Or did I miss something on the website?

They don't have prices on the web site. I emailed a price list request to them, to no response. But got a quick response when I requested information on the price for an alto recorder.

The information is thus:

Alto recorder $11.75 each
Shipping (UPS) $7.02

This information is entered into their online order form, after which they will call to confirm the order. So really, one had just as well use their phone number to make the order.

The soprano recorder is $4.25 each.

Jerry Freeman wrote:F# and C# would be different, but what looked similar to me is the fact that you go up the scale by simply uncovering holes working up from the bottom. No?

In looking at the fingering chart for the English system, it might be better to think of the C soprano recorder as equivalent to a D whistle, rather than a C whistle, as the scale beginning from D is with the six fingers covered on the D whistle, and not with seven covered, as for a C scale on the C recorder.

http://home.pacbell.net/jeanannc/mpro/i ... gChart.jpg

I actually don't know how to play using German fingering, so hopefully someone with knowledge of the subject can post.

StarrM · Post by **StarrM** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 9:34 am

Folks, just as a small bit of advice... avoid the German fingering recorders. They were invented, I think, in the 1930's as a way to provide easier fingerings for children trying to learn recorder and who were having trouble with the 'forked' fingering patterns of the Baroque recorders. They produce a louder lower register that is easier to play, but the whole top register is almost impossible to play in tune.

I attended a recorder seminar last weekend, and sat in on a beginner recorder class to study an exceptional teacher's method of introducing the recorder to new players. He told the class, if you have a German recorder, the best thing to do with it is take it outside and run over it with your car.

Also, as an FYI, the Rennaissance recorders indeed have a more 'whistle' like sound and are marvelous instruments. They also tend to be extremely expensive. I can't wait until I can both find one at a good price and afford it at the same point in time.

Starr (counting the minutes until tomorrow's Whistle seminars)

Chiff and Fipple Forums

OT: Where to get Angel "Renaissance" recorder?

OT: Where to get Angel "Renaissance" recorder?

rec***er

German Fingering Recorders