It is currently Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:30 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
 
 Post subject: Tune transposing help
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 7:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:39 am
Posts: 207
I suck at transposing, and i'm not sure how to approach this tune. It's a strathspey played here in Cape Breton called Forest of Garth/Forest of Gaick. I'd like to be able able to play it with my fiddler daughter without her having to learn a couple of versions. Anyway, it is usually written with one flat, and the lowest note is a C. I don't think octave folding works here.... so do I move it up two semitones and play it on a C whistle, kinda like Julia Delaney? That gives me D sharps. What's the best way to figure this out? Thanks for any help.

Here is the tune: http://tunearch.org/wiki/Forest_of_Gaick_(The)
here is the ABC I am using.. http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/book/ ... _Garth.abc

I am using the ABC converter at mandolintab.net

_________________
In Cape Breton, Nova Scotia


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 7:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:36 pm
Posts: 220
Location: PA
X:3167
T:the FOREST OF GARTH
C:Jos Lowe
Q:"Strathspey."
R:Strathspey.
%R: strathspey
B:James Kerr "Merry Melodies" v.3 p.20 #167
Z:2016 John Chambers <jc:trillian.mit.edu>
%%slurgraces yes
%%graceslurs yes
M:4/4
L:1/8
K:Em
uG |\
E<e- e>^d e2(e>f) | d>ef>e d<DD>F |\
E<e- e>^d e2e>f | d>Bd>F {GF}E2E ::\
f |\
g<ee>f d>ef<b |
g<ee>f g>eg<b |\
[1 g<ee>f d>ef<b | (3gfe (3fe^d e2-e :|\
[2 d>ed>A F<D F>A | (3BAG (3AGF E2-E |]

_________________
http://www.toppish.com
https://www.facebook.com/toppish


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 6:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:39 am
Posts: 207
Thanks; that's exactly what I came up with too. I still find the whole transposing thing mysterious, and the more i read, the more confusing I find it.

For this particular situation, all I really need is to get that low C.... so I could play it on my A whistle (haven't tried yet though), or, I have a D+ tube for my C/D Humphrey set. It works great, but I've set it aside and usually just have the Humphrey as a C. But it's there, and it's a solution.

_________________
In Cape Breton, Nova Scotia


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 11:20 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:17 am
Posts: 9871
Location: The Inside Passage
Have your daughter play the Dm version. If you play the Em version on your C whistle, the notes will sound in unison. This is because whistles are what's called transposing instruments, in which it is conventional to treat all whistle scores as if they're being played on a d whistle and to change keys by changing whistles without having to learn new fingerings. It's easier.

In contrast, fiddles play everything on the same instrument, so to change key they gotta learn new notation and new fingerings. Thus, you can have a situation in which you and your daughter can be playing from different scores but which turn out the same because by switching to a c whistle, the note you're sounding is a tone lower than what's written. I don't know how much more explicit I can get than this.

Whether or not this is a good strategy depends on how you feel about half-holing those ed#e triplets, but they look doable by sliding your finger across the hole. In this tune they're not landmark notes. You can safely hint at them by bending down from the e and back. You don't have to nail them precisely.

Edited: It's also possible to transpose it to Bm to get a 2 sharps score (down 5 semitones from the Em abc). You'd be folding a lot of notes, however, and still be half-holing an a#. This might not be an ideal tune to play on whistle.

_________________
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis


Last edited by s1m0n on Mon May 15, 2017 2:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 1:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:36 pm
Posts: 220
Location: PA
Transposing tunes shouldn’t be confusing. These days it’s easy to transpose tunes in ABC to any key you would like.
Rather than use the site at Mandolintab.net, you should download an ABC editor and familiarize yourself with it:
http://www.nilsliberg.se/ksp/easyabc/

It’s available for Windows and Mac, opens quickly and offers easy transpositions and re-coding/arranging to your tastes. It resides on your hard drive, so you don't need a connection to work with it like mandolintab.net

The easiest way to experiment with transposing is to copy an ABC into the bottom window (don’t forget to put in the first field i.e. X:1), then the manuscript will appear above. Go to the Edit drop down menu and go down to the Transpose line - a box will open showing that you can go up or down by half step. Figure out where you’d like it to be, select it, and the transposition will appear. In my version, the original still appears, with an error box at the bottom, but to remove it all you do is select what you don’t want and delete the old ABCs.

If you haven’t, you should download a copy of the ‘Circle of 5ths’ that will help in determining whether you can play your tunes on a fixed instrument like a whistle. The keys you’ll try to transpose to will be C, D, (F if you’re clever), G, A and their relative minors. Some of these keys require half-holing, which can be learned and become comfortable with practice.
I once saw Cathal McConnell and Aly Bain get into a heated argument when Cathal claimed he could play any tune on his D whistle that Aly could play on his fiddle. (He could do it, too, but not to Aly’s subjective liking).

When you're arranging tunes it's OK to do some folding (playing the note an octave above because it doesn't exist below), but if it is a defining note, comes in a very obvious place, or is distracting, then it's time to transpose to a more suitable key, or a more suitable whistle. There are few rules regarding this, mostly taste and ability.

_________________
http://www.toppish.com
https://www.facebook.com/toppish


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:06 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:17 am
Posts: 9871
Location: The Inside Passage
Some tunes are too chromatic or have too many accidentals to fit comfortably on a whistle in any key. Unless you're a virtuoso a whistle is largely a diatonic instrument. Don't assume that because you can't find a key that works you suck at transposition.

_________________
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 3:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:39 am
Posts: 207
Thanks gents. I am chewing on everything you are saying. I'm not completely green and I think I was basically on the right track, but this one tune had me scratching my head as to whether there was a better way to tackle it, by transposing or switching whistles or both. Definitely a fiddle tune, and folding doesn't work because those notes are as you called them defining notes.

I will try an ABC editor when I have some time to experiment. I've not had much call to do more than move the occasional tune around a bit so the online converters have done the job. This is a big music year for my girl though, and as she goes deeper in to the Cape Breton repertoire, I may have more call for it.

Thanks again.

_________________
In Cape Breton, Nova Scotia


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 3:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:44 pm
Posts: 465
Location: Washington State
The whole phase surrounding 'defining notes' can be played up an octave. Folding doesn't have to be limited to only the notes that fall below your whistle's range.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 4:03 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:17 am
Posts: 9871
Location: The Inside Passage
Adrian W. wrote:
I'm not completely green and I think I was basically on the right track..


Sorry if it sounded condescending. I knew I was over-explaining, but I wasn't sure what part you were stuck on.

_________________
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 4:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:39 am
Posts: 207
s1m0n wrote:
Adrian W. wrote:
I'm not completely green and I think I was basically on the right track..


Sorry if it sounded condescending. I knew I was over-explaining, but I wasn't sure what part you were stuck on.


Not condescending at all, and I appreciate the help, from all. I am certainly rusty, and easing back into playing more after a couple of hit and miss years, and some things are still buried back in my mental hard drive and slow er to retrieve.

_________________
In Cape Breton, Nova Scotia


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:45 pm
Posts: 671
Flexismart wrote:
Transposing tunes shouldn’t be confusing. These days it’s easy to transpose tunes in ABC to any key you would like.
Rather than use the site at Mandolintab.net, you should download an ABC editor and familiarize yourself with it:
http://www.nilsliberg.se/ksp/easyabc/

It’s available for Windows and Mac, opens quickly and offers easy transpositions and re-coding/arranging to your tastes. It resides on your hard drive, so you don't need a connection to work with it like mandolintab.net

The easiest way to experiment with transposing is to copy an ABC into the bottom window (don’t forget to put in the first field i.e. X:1), then the manuscript will appear above. Go to the Edit drop down menu and go down to the Transpose line - a box will open showing that you can go up or down by half step. Figure out where you’d like it to be, select it, and the transposition will appear. In my version, the original still appears, with an error box at the bottom, but to remove it all you do is select what you don’t want and delete the oldy.


If you want to use EasyABC go to
https://sourceforge.net/projects/easyabc/files/
And get the current version. You'll be much more happy.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:32 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:17 am
Posts: 9871
Location: The Inside Passage
The solution isn't this or that software. It's understanding the theory enough that you never have to be tied to any software again.

Think of where you are. A wee push and you'll have it for all time. If you learn new software instead of the theory, you'll have it until the software runs out or you next update your o/s. The former is slightly harder, but lasts decades longer.

Also, if you come to an understanding, you have a fighting chance to pass it on to your daughter in the painless way that kids absorb what their parents know. If all you know is software, you can teach her nothing lasting.

_________________
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:04 am
Posts: 1085
Location: Mercia
Just to say that that particular 'problem' - D minor tunes with a C# - is fairly common in Scottish tunes from the 18th and 19th centuries. I got a Eb key on my flute so I could play them in E minor and switch to a C whistle to play them in the 'proper' key. As in that tune it is often not an accented note so the half-holing is not a big problem.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: flyingowl and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.178s | 14 Queries | GZIP : On ]
(dh)