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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:28 am 
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RLindner wrote:
I own a tunable Optima with the original black head since 2013.
When I saw Phil's vids about the different colours I was curious and decided to try the red head.

It's true they sound different. The black has a more open sound, which my tutor really likes.
The red is more chiffy (Overton style) with a stronger bell note. It seems better balanced between
the octaves but the sound is also a bit dull.

But it's not the colour that effects the tone. That's for sure. It's certainly the manufacturing process
that leeds to slightly different geometries. I compared both heads using a precision measurement tool
(slide gauge). There are differences of up to one-tenth of millimeter in the window height and the distance
of the fipple to the blade.
The bevel on the fipple edge of the read head is slightly bigger which explains the stronger bell note.
(BTW the fipple block is a seperate piece which is shifted in the mouthpiece and locked. When I got the red
head it wasn't even locked an d I had to pushed in).
The window height at the beginning of the mouthpiece of the red head is less.
I finally made one modification on the read head to get the more open and focused tone of the black head,
but to keep some chiff and the stronger bell note as well.
I just sanded the windway (approx. plus one-tenth) at the very beginning of the moutpiece (maybe half the way down to the fipple edge) using extremely fine sanding paper (800er).

So, it's probably all about dimensions.
Now we are getting somewhere! Thanks for posting!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:32 am 
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Tor wrote:
mickey66 wrote:
But, I have two of the same whistles of a different color and they sound different!
Yes, but do you have two of each and do the ones with the same colour sound the same? That's the important question. It's not difficult to find whistles sounding different.. all of them do! :)
Tor, this is what Phil's R&D dept needs to delve into! I have a Red-top Tune-able and a Clear Smoke Fixed Low D. Both very different but the same.The only thing I know for sure is this.....Red sounds different from Clear Smoke and Black is different from Red and Smoke. Going by previous posts here and other threads. A mystery!

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Last edited by mickey66 on Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:02 am 
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mickey66 wrote:
Tor wrote:
mickey66 wrote:
But, I have two of the same whistles of a different color and they sound different!
Yes, but do you have two of each and do the ones with the same colour sound the same? That's the important question. It's not difficult to find whistles sounding different.. all of them do! :)
Tor, this is what Phil's R&D dept needs to delve into! I have a Red-top Tune-able and a Clear Smoke Fixed Low D. Both very different.The only thing I know for sure is this.....Red sounds different from Clear Smoke and Black is different from Red and Smoke. Going by previous posts here and other threads. A mystery!
But.. I don't think that's a mystery at all. As RLindner said - it's all about dimensions. That whistles sound differently isn't a mystery (it could be argued that if they did, it's a miracle). Now, if multiple whistles of the same colour (say, red) would sound the same, and consistenly different from a set of whistles with a different colour (say, black), which, among themselves, sound the same.. now that would be a mystery. It's not a mystery if there's only one of each colour to compare with.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:14 am 
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RLindner wrote:
I own a tunable Optima with the original black head since 2013.
When I saw Phil's vids about the different colours I was curious and decided to try the red head.

It's true they sound different. The black has a more open sound, which my tutor really likes.
The red is more chiffy (Overton style) with a stronger bell note. It seems better balanced between
the octaves but the sound is also a bit dull.
Both heads were used on the same tube!

But it's not the colour that effects the tone. That's for sure. It's certainly the manufacturing process
that leeds to slightly different geometries. I compared both heads using a precision measurement tool
(slide gauge). There are differences of up to one-tenth of millimeter in the window height and the distance
of the fipple to the blade.
The bevel on the fipple edge of the read head is slightly bigger which explains the stronger bell note.
(BTW the fipple block is a seperate piece which is shifted in the mouthpiece and locked. When I got the red
head it wasn't even locked and I had to push it in).
The window height at the beginning of the mouthpiece of the red head is less.
I finally made one modification on the read head to get the more open and focused tone of the black head,
but to keep some chiff and the stronger bell note as well.
I just sanded the windway (approx. plus one-tenth) at the very beginning of the moutpiece (maybe half the way down to the fipple edge) using extremely fine sanding paper (800er).

So, it's probably all about dimensions.
RLindner,
Is you're Optima Red-Head a Tune-able whistle? You have just described my Red-head whistle which is a Tune-able Optima Low D. Sound is not as open as my Clear smoke Optima but has more chiff. Red-top is quieter than my Clear Smoke fixed. Clear Smoke Fixed sound more like your description of you're Black Optima. strange

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:53 am 
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It's all the same whistle. I just ordered a single replacement head in red.
So the comparison between black and red was made with the same tuneable
tube.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:45 am 
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@RLinder. Thanks for posting and confirming my suspicion. If I remember from my physics class, on a wind instrument it's the vibration of the air column that makes the sound not the vibration of the materials. There is still a question that needs answering. We know there is variation due to the manufacturing process but where does that variation occur? Let me explain. Say Phil wants to produce 3 whistles in red, black, and blue. He probably makes them in blocks. He decides that 100 is the magic number and builds 100 of each. He is going to have to change something in the machinery in between colors. Could this account for the differences in sound? Who knows. If this were the case you would have a block of colors that sounded more similar. So if Phil decided he needed more red and went to make 100 more. Those should in theory sound a lot different than the previous block of red. So the question now is where the variation occurs. Is each whistle dramatically different or are there blocks of whistles that only have small variations between them? It would be cool if there were blocks that sounded similar. If that is the case and I was the manufacturer, I would identify the blocks with a stamp and use it for marketing. Especially since he posts video of him playing the instruments before they are for sale. You could hear it and go "that one is more smooth sounding. Just what I'm looking for."


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:59 am 
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Gym Kirk wrote:
@RLinder. Thanks for posting and confirming my suspicion. If I remember from my physics class, on a wind instrument it's the vibration of the air column that makes the sound not the vibration of the materials. There is still a question that needs answering. We know there is variation due to the manufacturing process but where does that variation occur? Let me explain. Say Phil wants to produce 3 whistles in red, black, and blue. He probably makes them in blocks. He decides that 100 is the magic number and builds 100 of each. He is going to have to change something in the machinery in between colors. Could this account for the differences in sound? Who knows. If this were the case you would have a block of colors that sounded more similar. So if Phil decided he needed more red and went to make 100 more. Those should in theory sound a lot different than the previous block of red. So the question now is where the variation occurs. Is each whistle dramatically different or are there blocks of whistles that only have small variations between them? It would be cool if there were blocks that sounded similar. If that is the case and I was the manufacturer, I would identify the blocks with a stamp and use it for marketing. Especially since he posts video of him playing the instruments before they are for sale. You could hear it and go "that one is more smooth sounding. Just what I'm looking for."

Gym Kirk,
This post is making a lot of sense to me. Phil has said in his video of the Red - top whistle that he went to the people that manufacture his whistle head-shells and asked them if they were doing anything differently on the Red - top whistle heads(manufacturing process). And, they said no! Now, the length of the whistle on my two whistles are different in length. My Red-top is 22 5/16th(total length over-all of said whistle) and my Clear Smoke is 22" 11/16th.... Pipers Grip says the Fixed Optima is 22" 13/16th(total length over-all of said whistle)....not so on mine! I don't think this would effect the sound as much as say pitch. So, this says right-off Phil was realizing something was different in the manufacturing process to raise a red flag, so to speak. At least it seems that way to me!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:09 pm 
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Gym Kirk wrote:
@RLinder. Thanks for posting and confirming my suspicion. If I remember from my physics class, on a wind instrument it's the vibration of the air column that makes the sound not the vibration of the materials. There is still a question that needs answering. We know there is variation due to the manufacturing process but where does that variation occur? Let me explain. Say Phil wants to produce 3 whistles in red, black, and blue. He probably makes them in blocks. He decides that 100 is the magic number and builds 100 of each. He is going to have to change something in the machinery in between colors. Could this account for the differences in sound? Who knows. If this were the case you would have a block of colors that sounded more similar. So if Phil decided he needed more red and went to make 100 more. Those should in theory sound a lot different than the previous block of red. So the question now is where the variation occurs. Is each whistle dramatically different or are there blocks of whistles that only have small variations between them? It would be cool if there were blocks that sounded similar. If that is the case and I was the manufacturer, I would identify the blocks with a stamp and use it for marketing. Especially since he posts video of him playing the instruments before they are for sale. You could hear it and go "that one is more smooth sounding. Just what I'm looking for."

Heat Injection Molding for the Head-Shells! That's gotta be where things change when he/they switch to a different color?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:30 pm 
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RLindner wrote:
It's all the same whistle. I just ordered a single replacement head in red.
So the comparison between black and red was made with the same tuneable
tube.
RLindner,
I cleaned up the inside of the mouthpiece on my red-top(inside of the beak(top&bottom) to the wind window(top only on wind window) w/sandpaper with a back and forth motion) doubled the volume and brought it up to the same open sound level as far as sound volume goes with the Clear Smoke whistle..... I did the same to DE-burr the clear smoke whistle and now both are the same in volume and have no buzz's or rattles! Both have very strong/secure bell notes(for the Optima) now and very clear sounding! However, I did not loose any Chiff with the red-top or Clear Smoke whistle! :) They both sound really great and play like Butter! Edit/Note: Clear Smoke Optima has a little more Chiff than the Red-Top Optima.

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Last edited by mickey66 on Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:52 pm 
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Mickey66,

You have spent a considerable effort on this review and on managing this thread. I hope you were compensated well for you time.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:09 am 
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:moreevil: :moreevil: :moreevil: :moreevil: :moreevil: :moreevil: :moreevil:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:35 am 
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UPDATE:
Just a quick update for all the people that have read and are following this thread. I received another redhead Kerry Optima low D whistle. The redhead Optima s sound the same(I own 1 tune-able & 1 fixed redhead)! However, the "Clear Smoke" Optima has a more open sound and is louder in overall sound volume than the redheads(not by much i may add) Bell note(low D note) on the redheads is loud for the Optima whistle line. I have a Optima Blacktop low D coming from across the pond and I will give an update on that whistle as well. Mickey

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Last edited by mickey66 on Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:13 pm 
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Quote:
I hope you were compensated well for you time.


Well, look at his website. He's selling the fecking things. Image

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:16 pm 
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Sorry to offend you!

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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 2:09 pm 
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If the hardy plastic heads produce a different sound do the MK different colors produce different sounds also? :-?


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