Dumb question about low D's and finger reach

[Tor]

Around Christmas time I ordered a Decker Low D whistle, I have wanted to try a low D for some time, but they're a bit costly - so the $20 whistle had the ideal price, so cheap it didn't even incur VAT or customs handling fees. Definitely worth it. I received it in January, and I'm happy with it so far.

What surprised me though was that I don't need that talked about "piper's grip" (aka super-duper something). It's just like playing a soprano D, nothing to adjust to really - well, I can use a kind of, I guess, "half" piper's.. covering the holes slightly closer to the joint of index- and ring fingers, but still on the first (outer) finger pads. Or, as I said, just use a completely normal grip.
My hands are, as far as I can determine, pretty regular average size for a man.
Can I assume that the Decker whistle is designed to require less finger reach than low Ds in general? So, if I like it enough (as a "low D test" whistle) to later acquire another one (maybe a tunable one, of a different brand), should I expect that I will have to re-adjust and change to piper's grip? Or are there other factors than just length of fingers/size of hand that determines this?

This question is pretty dumb, isn't it? But playing this whistle is just so different from what I expected that I have to ask it.

[Steve Bliven]

Perhaps easiest to answer with some measurements of distances between holes on your instrument. To copy the measurements from the ongoing MK discussion, how about
- Space between holes 1 and 3, centre to centre.
- Space between holes 4 and 6, centre to centre.

Best wishes.

Steve

[Spielorjh]

I also have a Becker Low D and though I can play it without using piper's grip, it's really uncomfortable. It plays beautifully and quickly when I use piper's grip with both hands.

To compare, I also have a Low D Open Whistle and the hole spacing seems just about identical to the Becker. It's weight and embouchure requirements make it much more difficult to play.

[Brus]

Is the Becker smaller than the average low D?

I play a Susato low D. I do need to use piper's grip, which is comfortable. No way I could use my high-D flat finger grip.

As far a hand size - I can play an octave on a piano without strain, and a ninth with some strain.

[Hooleh]

Two edges of the sword:
1) If you are able to play the low D without the piper's grip, there's no actual reason why you wouldn't or shouldn't. The main point of music is always that it sounds good, no matter how the sound is produced.
2) The piper's grip I guess is just one of those things that is thought to be the 'right' or 'proper' way of playing the low D. Just as there are 'rules' how you would position your hand on a piano, or how would hold a drum stick correctly etc. At least it bugs me personally a little to see someone playing a low whistle with their fingertips, and I would probably want to go and correct them.

Anyway, to give an opinion on your actual question: there are some variability in different makers' dimentions, but they're easily in the same ballpark, so if you choose to learn the piper's grip, I guess there's more chance for you to find future low whistles easier to learn.
What's more, learning to play with the piper's grip will prove advantageous should you ever take interest in Uilleann piping, for instance (which is the case with myself right now and I'm super excited, but that's another story).

[Tor]

I haven't done the suggested measurements yet, but I will.
As for taking up the pipes, that will never happen.. I don't want to offend anyone, but I don't like to listen to pipes.
But it is possible to go lower than D for whistles, of course. I assume that would be a target for piper's grip. (It's not something I think would be difficult to learn though - I have tried it, of course, I even tried that when I got my alto G, intermittently, but I quickly figured it wasn't necessary.)
Not sure why it bugs you to see someone playing a low whistle the way they play the high whistle. It could be argued that piper's grip is what looks strange.

[Spielorjh]

I didn't learn piper's grip until I got my Becker Low D. Suddenly now my Susato low G is a whole lot easier to play.

[Steve Bliven]

Not sure why it bugs you to see someone playing a low whistle the way they play the high whistle. It could be argued that piper's grip is what looks strange.

To me it seems obvious that a player should use whatever grip works for their particular body parts and arrangement—without any sort of value judgement about "looking strange". It's just what works...

I play a low whistle the same way I play a high whistle. In my case, I played Scottish and English pipes and when I moved to whistles and flutes I continued using the "piper's grip"—no matter what size of whistle was involved. That's what was comfortable, and worked best, for me.

What looks strange to me is how that Bergin lady plays with her hands upside down, I have to admit she does a pretty good job with it though.

Best wishes.

Steve

[Tor]

[what works] But then there's that signature of yours, Steve

But yes, I'm in agreement - I never thought of using anything other than what works best. Not what "looks" best. I was just surprised when I received the low D and started playing. Will do those measurements though, in any case.

[Steve Bliven]

[what works] But then there's that signature of yours, Steve

Oh, I just use the signature to show how judgemental some people can be...

BTW, It really is possible (I've tried it) but it's hard to play when you're laughing at yourself.

Best wishes.

Steve

[Hooleh]

Not sure why it bugs you to see someone playing a low whistle the way they play the high whistle. It could be argued that piper's grip is what looks strange.

Well, that I guess is just a quirk of my own personality.
For me personally the piper's grip has been a necessity, especialy when playing the low Bb whistle - would be quite impossible for me to reach the holes without the piper's grip. And indeed, after playing that whistle for a while the low D feels almost like a high whistle.

Didn't mean to imply that not using piper's grip would be wrong. It's just that's the way I learned the low whistle, and that's the way I would pass on the knowledge I have.
I would simply back it up with the statement or argument that maybe more people on average would find their hands reaching the holes more easily with the piper's grip. But if you can do it without, then by all means.
The point, naturally, remains that one should play as they see fit, as long as it sounds good and, more importantly, makes the player enjoy the playing.

[Chifmunk]

I envy folks who can play a low A or G whistle without using piper's grip! Must be like those guys who can hold a basketball using one hand on top.

[pancelticpiper]

There are no dumb questions! (Just dumb answers, as they say.)

I will get on my soap-box for a moment: It always strikes me as odd when people say things that can be interpreted as implying non-piper's grip is normal, assumed, or even advantageous, or that there is anything unusual, special, or quirky about piper's grip.

Seems to me that this reflects viewing the Low Whistle from a perspective brought from smaller instruments, or instruments with Boehm keywork.

Instruments the size of a Low D whistle tend to be played with flattish fingers and using the middle-joint pad on at least some of the fingers, for examples most species of bagpipes and many sorts of folk flutes etc.

It's merely a matter of what's more comfortable and what leads to the least hand tension.

Here's some very relaxed fingers, playing instruments the size of Low D whistles. I don't think these guys would consider it "piper's grip" nor would they imagine any other way of holding their flutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6NfJfuCdHw

Here's the basics of the sort of grip that's pretty much world-wide, and works well for big whistles. He demonstrates both sorts of grips, finger-tip and middle-pad, and says he switched from the former to the latter when he started playing larger flutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi1tpugX4tI

I concur. The so-called piper's grip not only makes playing Low Ds very easy and comfortable, but also makes playing bigger whistles possible. Here's my Bass A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJm6BQ-Qxcg

[Chifmunk]

Richard, I so enjoyed your video on the low A... beautiful and soulful.

[calanthrophy]

I envy folks who can play a low A or G whistle without using piper's grip! Must be like those guys who can hold a basketball using one hand on top.

As a member of the Short Stubby Finger Club, I understand how you feel.