new whistle wanted, but what kind?

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awildman
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Re: new whistle wanted, but what kind?

Post by awildman »

Heavier = more durable. Thicker tubing, solid head construction etc. Nothing wrong with that. I have arthritis and have zero problems playing my Killarney. In fact, the cheaper whistles feel like toys in comparison.
mainlandjusiel
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Tell us something.: I'm a flutist interested in whistle. I've played cheap whistles and am interested in finding something a little better but have no information to go by. I'm hoping people in these forums can point me in the right direction. I also noticed you have a used instrument exchange which could prove very helpful.

Re: new whistle wanted, but what kind?

Post by mainlandjusiel »

Thanks for all the info! It's obvious I was making some assumptions and not asking all the right questions.

I'm a modern, Boehm system flute player, but dabble in Irish and Baroque flute.

I found the subscribe button. :-)

I also found my Feadog whistle that had been missing for several months. It's definitely better than my Generation as far as intonation and balanced tone goes. When I say, "in tune", I don't mean exact, equal temperament pitches. I mean pitches that are close enough to sounding relatively in tune that I don't have to blow LOTS harder or LOTS softer to get different pitches in an acceptable intonation range.

My assumption: I was working on the assumption that, like recorders and flutes, there are levels of quality in whistles. An Abel whistle can cost over $600. Why would anyone pay that unless there was something better about it? I just tried a whistle I ordered online for $40. I won't share the maker because I don't want to bash anyone without knowing fully what I'm talking about, but anything above the second octave A is difficult to sound without blowing my brains out, and the lower octave is way far out of tune with itself. I prefer my Feadog, so won't be keeping the one I just got.

What I want: As good intonation as possible, and a tone in which the upper octave doesn't need to be crazy loud to sound. My Feadog definitely fits the bill with the second quality, and is not bad in the first. I've got a Susato bass D which I like quite a bit, although it's a tad "airy". Perhaps I should try a Susato D. Someone mentioned a Feadog Pro? What's the difference between the Feadog regular and the pro? Maybe I'm wanting something that doesn't exist for under a few hundred. Still...why would Feadog sell a "pro" model if it wasn't supposedly better in some way than the regular model?

Please forgive me if some of this sounds ignorant. That's why I'm here, and I very much appreciate the responses.
mainlandjusiel
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Tell us something.: I'm a flutist interested in whistle. I've played cheap whistles and am interested in finding something a little better but have no information to go by. I'm hoping people in these forums can point me in the right direction. I also noticed you have a used instrument exchange which could prove very helpful.

Re: new whistle wanted, but what kind?

Post by mainlandjusiel »

A couple more things...

I'll check out those links, and may get to go to Dublin this summer. If so, I can actually TRY out some whistles!!! Where I live, I have to order anything I want to try. Perhaps it's worth a drive someplace that has a selection of whistles...?

Also, when I say "technique", I'm talking about stylistic things, like ornaments, trills, etc.
mainlandjusiel
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Tell us something.: I'm a flutist interested in whistle. I've played cheap whistles and am interested in finding something a little better but have no information to go by. I'm hoping people in these forums can point me in the right direction. I also noticed you have a used instrument exchange which could prove very helpful.

Re: new whistle wanted, but what kind?

Post by mainlandjusiel »

oleorezinator wrote:Oak and generation? Try this.
http://www.killarneywhistle.com/
I saw that Kilarney whistle online! I almost ordered it! ...should have. I know it would be better than the one I got. Sticking with my Feadog until I find something better. I'll keep looking into all these links, though. I'll write the Killarney peeps, specifically. Maybe they will let me try one with the ability to return it if it isn't what I'm looking for. If they're in Dublin, I can just get one there. :D
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Re: new whistle wanted, but what kind?

Post by Mr.Gumby »

I was working on the assumption that, like recorders and flutes, there are levels of quality in whistles.
Well, yes, to an extend there is. Price is not an indicator though.
As good intonation as possible, and a tone in which the upper octave doesn't need to be crazy loud to sound.
To an extend, you're the driver. Playing in tune is part of your job description
. Perhaps I should try a Susato D.
If you don't want a crazy loud second octave as you put it, this is not the one for you.
Someone mentioned a Feadog Pro? What's the difference between the Feadog regular and the pro? Maybe I'm wanting something that doesn't exist for under a few hundred.
There is no discernible difference.
Still...why would Feadog sell a "pro" model if it wasn't supposedly better in some way than the regular model?
Good question. But your guess is as good as anybody else's.

Really, if you like your Feadóg, do yourself a favour and get the Killarney. It's well balanced and easy to play and it is made by people who can actually play, which makes all the difference.
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awildman
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Re: new whistle wanted, but what kind?

Post by awildman »

Judging by your comments, I don't think your problem is bad whistles. I think it is lack of proper breath support. Practice will solve your problem. Knowing you have a solid whistle will help a bit also.

IMO, get a Killarney or similar so you know you have a quality product and focus on practice.. Whistle is a real instrument and takes just as much time and dedication to become proficient as any other. It is easy to justify less practice time on such a simple instrument - don't fall into that trap.

My Killarney has the nicest high A and B of any whistle I've tried. It is semi quiet, lowish air requirements, and is balanced between both octaves. $72 shipped to my door.

As far as prices go, why would anybody pay 50 grand for a flute when a 5 grand flute will serve just as well? It is all personal preference or ego boosting above a certain price point, nothing more. Same with all other instruments and whistles are no different.
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Re: new whistle wanted, but what kind?

Post by whistlecollector »

mainlandjusiel wrote:Thanks for all the info! It's obvious I was making some assumptions and not asking all the right questions.

I'm a modern, Boehm system flute player, but dabble in Irish and Baroque flute.
Okay, so you're not entirely unfamiliar with simple system instruments and their quirks. That's certainly a help!
I also found my Feadog whistle that had been missing for several months. It's definitely better than my Generation as far as intonation and balanced tone goes. When I say, "in tune", I don't mean exact, equal temperament pitches. I mean pitches that are close enough to sounding relatively in tune that I don't have to blow LOTS harder or LOTS softer to get different pitches in an acceptable intonation range.
I'd say that if you really have blow lots harder or lots softer to get in tune notes, then you probably have a wonky whistle.
My assumption: I was working on the assumption that, like recorders and flutes, there are levels of quality in whistles. An Abel whistle can cost over $600. Why would anyone pay that unless there was something better about it? I just tried a whistle I ordered online for $40. I won't share the maker because I don't want to bash anyone without knowing fully what I'm talking about, but anything above the second octave A is difficult to sound without blowing my brains out, and the lower octave is way far out of tune with itself. I prefer my Feadog, so won't be keeping the one I just got.
There certainly are levels of quality, but it's not like the highest quality "cheap whistle" can never be a better player than the worst "expensive whistle"! I guess when you get down to it, there's only so many things you can do with a bit of plumbing with holes in.

One thing I've certainly learned here is that, as with any musical instrument, there's quality and there's quality. And also that money paid for whistle is not what determines how nice a whistle sounds when played! You can ask any of the better players here who've tried several whistles each of different makers: I'm sure they'll all tell you the same thing. With a skilled craftsman making the instruments, you'll get some real peaches and you'll get some real lemons. And then you'll get a whole lot of varying quality in between. And with mass produced whistles, they also tell you much the same: you seem to get a similar bell curve spread, just at a lower price!

Point being, often what you're paying for is a) name and reputation of maker b) costly and unusual materials c) the craftsman's touch and the hope that he is a dab hand at tuning and voicing. Often you'll get a really good instrument with a nice sound and well in tune. Sometimes his ideas of tuning and voicing don't jive with the sound you want, but happily, a good maker will work with you to get the instrument playing as you'd like. Or exchange for one with different characteristics. The other point being that there is no single standard which whistle makers strive for; and there is often little to no quality control, so instrument quality can be less than consistent. So yeah, you can pay $600 or a $1000 dollars for an Abel or a Copeland that will play every bit as good as a beat up old Gen. You can also get lucky and pay $600 or a $1000 for the whistle of your dreams the sound of which is liquid gold!
What I want: As good intonation as possible, and a tone in which the upper octave doesn't need to be crazy loud to sound. My Feadog definitely fits the bill with the second quality, and is not bad in the first.
Sounds like you've got a keeper! Feadogs, and particularly the "classic" Feadog Mark I, seem to be well spoken of.
I've got a Susato bass D which I like quite a bit, although it's a tad "airy".
Bass D? Just a point of terminology: if you mean a whistle one octave below the standard d penny whistle (like your Feadog) then that's generally called simply a "low D" (or "low whatever") whistle. A bass whistle is a rare beast that plays an octave below that. So, in the 4' range (as opposed to the 2' range of the "low D" and the 1' range of the "high d" whistle).

And yeah, I've heard that Susatos can be airy. I believe they are also wider bore and tend to be louder.
Perhaps I should try a Susato D. Someone mentioned a Feadog Pro? What's the difference between the Feadog regular and the pro?
Different stickers? :twisted:
Maybe I'm wanting something that doesn't exist for under a few hundred. Still...why would Feadog sell a "pro" model if it wasn't supposedly better in some way than the regular model?
Keep in mind that top whistlers don't always play on the most expensive instruments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn4LUaAF69s --- I'm sure this is a Generation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9eC_MYp-5I --- I'm sure this is no $600 whistle!
Please forgive me if some of this sounds ignorant. That's why I'm here, and I very much appreciate the responses.
No worries! We're all learning here.

I'm no great player, but I've long maintained a small number of favorite whistles, in no particular order: narrow bore Mack Hoover in d; Copeland brass in low D; Chromette (I believe in c); Asarkar in low D; Clarke (?) in high G; Barnett & Samuels in low G; any of several Calura / Anonymous type inter-war painted tin "toy" whistles mostly in c.

A better player might take them and proclaim them all sh*t. An even better player could take any of these, plus the ones that are not my favourites, and make any of them sing!
-- A tin whistle a day keeps the racketts at bay.

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awildman
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Re: new whistle wanted, but what kind?

Post by awildman »

Alternatively, you can see Ms Bergin here playing a Sindt (I believe) and has taped a hole or three to fix intonation. Sindt whistles are generally considered top-notch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOXhG-wngPo
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Re: new whistle wanted, but what kind?

Post by Mr.Gumby »

Alternatively, you can see Ms Bergin here playing a Sindt (I believe) and has taped a hole or three to fix intonation. Sindt whistles are generally considered top-notch
But they're tuned rather rigidly to an equal tempered scale, which is not to everybody's liking. Also. Mary B does have a habit of swapping tube from one whistle to the next, and she's not the only one doing that either. Last time I saw her playing a Sindt it didn't have holes taped.
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Re: new whistle wanted, but what kind?

Post by pancelticpiper »

mainlandjusiel wrote:Hello All,

I'm new here & am looking for a descent whistle for under $100. I've played the cheapies and they are fine for some things, but I'm wanting to play a little more seriously and am looking for something with a little better intonation & hopefully tone than those. I know extremely little about various brands. What brands should I be looking for?

Thanks in advance!
Maggie
Well first of all, greetings from a fellow Mountaineer! (In exile on The Left Coast, but I return to the hills annually to visit the relatives.)

I've made this speech before on these boards, so the regulars here are all saying "here he goes again!"

When I started playing (mid-1970s) the only D whistle around was the Generation. They cost around $5. Everyone played them, from the finest players, the players making albums, the players doing studio work, the trad session players, the beginners, everyone. What you entered into was a lifetime quest for the best Generation D you could find. You tried every one you came across. Eventually you found a really good one. And in many cases you'd have to modify it, say carve a fingerhole here or there, or pack the head with wax or blu-tac or what have you.

And perhaps it's simply because that's the way things were, but in my opinion there's no whistle on the planet at any price better than a really good Generation. The old Generation C I've been playing for 35 years is the finest whistle at any price I've ever owned. For a D I play a Feadog MK1 of the same vintage.

Then, what, in the 1980s a load of Americans started making whistles, fancy whistles out of wood and brass and plastic and I didn't care for any of them. "Boutique whistles" I call them. Trouble was, they didn't perform like a really good Generation or Feadog (or other "cheapie") did. The goal seemed to be to get as loud a low register as possible, and they sacrificed the sweetness and ease and nimbleness of the 2nd octave. (In general they had a bore which was too wide for the whistle's length.) With timbre the goal seemed to be to make a whistle that sounded like a Native American flute, or Boehm flute, or indeed anything other than an Irish whistle.

This all makes me question the assumption that cheap whistles are only good "for some things" and that "serious" playing requires an expensive whistle.

I see that you come from a "legit" background, and I've found over the years that people coming to Irish whistle from Boehm flute, or recorder, or sax, or what have you tend to prefer whistles with different playing characteristics than trad Irish players tend to. I think these American "boutique" makers probably came from such backgrounds and were making whistles targeted at people with such backgrounds. So it might well be the case that you yourself will prefer a quite different sort of whistle than myself, or Mr Gumby, or most trad whistle players would prefer. (I don't want to put words in his mouth but we seem to usually be on the same page with this sort of thing.)

But! These "boutique" whistles (mostly American-made) come with a price-tag. Have you tried a Burke? I've consistently found that "legit" players love them. Burkes have many things to recommend them: a full strong low range, a clear tone, butter-smooth voicing over the gamut, great intonation. What really impresses me is how you can pick up any Burke, from the Low D to the High D and everything in between, and they all play identically, making them ideal for the studio musician who might have to grab any key on the fly and make great music. The drawbacks of Burkes are that the high notes are a bit stiff/recalcitrant and that they have an unusually large appetite for air.

Another thing to investigate are the Jerry Freeman "tweaked" whistles. He takes cheap whistles and modifies them to give a full sound with even voicing and great intonation.

Good luck!! Richard
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Re: new whistle wanted, but what kind?

Post by pancelticpiper »

awildman wrote:Alternatively, you can see Ms Bergin here playing a Sindt (I believe) and has taped a hole or three to fix intonation. Sindt whistles are generally considered top-notch.
Top-notch whistles can still have a scale different than the one you want.

Of all the whistles I have, few have come with the exact tuning I want, and nearly all have had some carving done.

I had a Sindt D and the scale was off, so I switched bodies with an old Generation body IIRC.

My wonderful old Generation C had a tuning quirk, the note emitting from Hole 4 being sharper than all the other notes. I played it with tape on that hole for a few years, then bit the bullet and chopped the end a tad and carved out all the other holes a tad to give a perfectly in-tune whistle with no tape. I've been playing that whistle for 35 years, no regrets.

Overton whistles are used by many professionals but many of the ones I've owned have some tuning quirk or other. One had a bellnote much flatter than all the fingerhole notes, so I chopped the end, the result being a great whistle. Susatos are the most all-over-the-map whistles I've had. I've owned loads of Susatos in just about every key (including Gb and Ab) and every one had a unique scale. Nearly all had to be carved and/or taped to fix. Luckily the plastic they're made from is easy to saw and carve. (The only Susatos I had which came right in tune were a couple Low D's.)
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Re: new whistle wanted, but what kind?

Post by pancelticpiper »

Mr.Gumby wrote: tuned rather rigidly to an equal tempered scale
As I've said before, the difference between an ET whistle and a JI whistle is 2 pieces of tape.

Did Mary have tape on Hole 2 and Hole 5?
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mainlandjusiel
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Tell us something.: I'm a flutist interested in whistle. I've played cheap whistles and am interested in finding something a little better but have no information to go by. I'm hoping people in these forums can point me in the right direction. I also noticed you have a used instrument exchange which could prove very helpful.

Re: new whistle wanted, but what kind?

Post by mainlandjusiel »

awildman wrote: My Killarney has the nicest high A and B of any whistle I've tried. It is semi quiet, lowish air requirements, and is balanced between both octaves. $72 shipped to my door.
That's what I'm looking for. I'll look more into the Killarney and a couple other whistles mentioned. My biggest problem is I can't try them without buying them.

I found my very first pennywhistle: an Oak. It's fine! I think I must have gotten a dud Generation, because the Feadog & Oak are quite acceptable. Also, on the one I just regretted ordering, to play the A & B up an octave takes tremendous air...way over the top, and the B sounds just nasty. It's a dud. I don't actually have a problem with breath "support"...just not enough practice with breath control, as several mentioned, but I know enough to know what range I'm willing to work it. The last whistle I got was way out of that range. The Oak is fabulous, pitch wise.

There's too many things I want to comment on & I have to go. THANK YOU SO MUCH for all the info! Will write later.
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Re: new whistle wanted, but what kind?

Post by Tyler DelGregg »

Mae wrote:Oh, nice. Didn't know the Killarney whistle was under US$100, but the exchange rate is good. I've read that these are a bit heavier, though.
I have one in all brass, and it does feel heavy but it has a beautiful voice. Really, really nice whistle.
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Re: new whistle wanted, but what kind?

Post by awildman »

Physics and life in general dictate that things need to be tuned to the middle 80% or so. Scales and other measuring tools lose accuracy in the top and bottom 10%. Your car has more power and efficiency in the middle of its RPM range than bottom or top ends. Etc.

Whistles are no different. The top note or two simply fall out of the nominal range for this tube size. You can adjust a bit with your airstream, but there is not the flexibility of a flute embouchure. If you want to make the top two notes easier, this will affect other aspects of the whistle. Good makers will be able to make things as even as possible, but there will always be compromises. Like the c/c# intonation thing.


Until somebody applies space age technology that can vary fipples and hole and tubing sizes as you are playing, we have to deal with what we have. As mr. Gumby said, we're the drivers, and it is up to us to drive within the limitations our instruments have.

God I sound like my father with such lectures. Yikes!
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