Has anyone made a ridiculously large bore whistle for fun?

[AngelicBeaver]

I was just wondering if someone with whistle making skill had ever applied said skills to making a whistle with a larger diameter section of pipe (like 2-4" diameter) and how did it go?

[ericgrey]

Check out the wonderful Daniel Bingamon's site.

http://www.bingamon.com/jubilee/pagesmith/39

[AngelicBeaver]

I wasn't speaking of Bass whistles exactly. I was thinking more of something like a soprano D with a 1 or 2" diameter pipe or a low D with a 3 or 4" diameter pipe. I know that larger bore instruments are generally louder than their narrow bore counterparts, but I'm curious how far you can go. Obviously, your fingers need to be able to close over the holes, but what else is affected by such extreme diameters?

[ggiles]

The whistle calculators say ... No .... but them I'm just plugging in numbers. Someone really understanding the mathematics of sound could give you an answer.

[tin tin]

It's a bit like asking "Has anyone ever used an upright bass string as a mandolin string?" Physics will say no.

[calanthrophy]

Seems like even if it were possible (which I can't say one way or the other) it would take a ridiculous amount of air.

[tompipes]

Unfortunately that kinda thing won't work. A whistle or flute tube has to have bore diameter that's relative to the length on order be in tune, or even make a sound.

So even with a D whistle, if you went wider than 5/8 of an inch the tuning would be all over the place and it'd be very quiet.

Pity though, it'd be a fun contraption to pull our at a session!

Tommy

Edited to add,

The diameter of a whistles tube is what dictates the size of the standing wave inside it and the standing wave creates the pitch.

[hans]

Unfortunately that kinda thing won't work. A whistle or flute tube has to have bore diameter that's relative to the length on order be in tune, or even make a sound.

So even with a D whistle, if you went wider than 5/8 of an inch the tuning would be all over the place and it'd be very quiet.

Pity though, it'd be a fun contraption to pull our at a session!

Tommy

Edited to add,

The diameter of a whistles tube is what dictates the size of the standing wave inside it and the standing wave creates the pitch.

I don't see how the bore diameter should dictate the pitch. The pitch is determined by the length of the vibrating air column, which is chiefly dependent on the length of the tube, plus a bit more depending on the window and bottom hole (bore) size (with all fingers on).

I have not made a high D whistle with a bore size larger than 5/8", but that size worked okay tuning-wise. I expect larger bores would similarly work, and would not expect such very large bore whistles to demand excessive amounts of air. The air demand depends largely on the windway and window design, and one would not need to increase it proportionally with the bore size.

My guess is that a bore of one inch should be okay for a high D design. Remove the body from the head of a low D whistle for instance, and blow the head. You get a perfectly reasonable tone. Not sure if two inches would work though, or at what point a very large bore would not permit overblowing for second octave notes.

What changes radically is the tone of the whistle: the larger the bore, for a given pitch, the lesser the overtone components in the tone, so wider bore whistles tend to have a more flute-like sound, with an enhanced base frequency component. So the tone will become increasingly sinus-like. Which sounds pretty dull.

[benhall.1]

I thought the bore size did have some effect on pitch - is that not right? I'm going to have to go off and look now. Glad you chimed in here, Hans. It's a really interesting topic, I think, and you actually have some expertise (unlike, say, me ).

[hans]

I thought the bore size did have some effect on pitch - is that not right? I'm going to have to go off and look now. Glad you chimed in here, Hans. It's a really interesting topic, I think, and you actually have some expertise (unlike, say, me ).

yes, some effect, but the length is the prime factor. Imagine a vibrating column of air (since we cannot see it) inside the tube. The column is actually longer than the tube, it sticks out at the window and at the bottom end , which makes it longer than the tube. The wider the bore, the more it sticks out. So the frequency of the resonating air column is deeper when the bore size gets increased and the tube length stays the same. Eventually with increasing bore something will not allow a stable resonance I imagine.

PS: actually the air column is vibrating, so air goes in and out at both end rapidly, at the frequency of resonance. Energy gets transferred to the surrounding air. A bit like invisible drum skins at window and end. And if the bore is too large these transfers break down, or can't even start (no resonance), or can only start with huge amount of energy needed to get the resonance going. I am not sure about these acoustic mechanisms for border-line phenomena.

[benhall.1]

I thought the bore size did have some effect on pitch - is that not right? I'm going to have to go off and look now. Glad you chimed in here, Hans. It's a really interesting topic, I think, and you actually have some expertise (unlike, say, me ).

yes, some effect, but the length is the prime factor. Imagine a vibrating column of air (since we cannot see it) inside the tube. The column is actually longer than the tube, it sticks out at the window and at the bottom end , which makes it longer than the tube. The wider the bore, the more it sticks out. So the frequency of the resonating air column is deeper when the bore size gets increased and the tube length stays the same. Eventually with increasing bore something will not allow a stable resonance I imagine.

PS: actually the air column is vibrating, so air goes in and out at both end rapidly, at the frequency of resonance. Energy gets transferred to the surrounding air. A bit like invisible drum skins at window and end. And if the bore is too large these transfers break down, or can't even start (no resonance), or can only start with huge amount of energy needed to get the resonance going. I am not sure about these acoustic mechanisms for border-line phenomena.

Thanks. That helps. I think that's kind of what was vaguely in the back of my mind. But nicely put, hans!

[Mack.Hoover]

Has anyone made a ridiculously large bore whistle for fun?

The simple answer is yes. I did. More out of ignorance than fun.
The practical answer:
the fun went away because of the results.

For what it's worth an ocarina and a melody flute/whistle (closed end) sorta provide an answer.

[benhall.1]

the fun went away because of the results.

What were those results, Mack?

[Mack.Hoover]

"What were those results, Mack?"

Nice sound for the bottom few notes and then each note got more and more out of tune-- flatter and flatter if I remember right.

When I started making whistles there were no real instructions available.
Anything hollow or what I could make hollow was fair game and so I tried it.
Large bore sounded good on the low end and lost it as you went up.
Narrow bore played good high and lost it on the low end.
Goldielocks bores played good up and down.
That turned out to be about 20 to 1 length to internal diameter.
The size of the holes and spacing was a trial and error guessing game.
Being a carpenter helped because I had tools.
Red headed Generations were cheap and sold locally and sounded awful but gave some clues to
size and shape. The shape of my pipe dream.

[hans]

checking whistle design with a hole location calculator:
It seems possible to increase the bore to about 23mm / 7/8", i.e. tubing for low D, and still be able to make a high D whistle which will play over two octaves, and with holes which are fingerable. Increasing the bore further will require finger holes which a larger than one can seal, in order to get second octave notes, or, with holes one can still seal, one looses the ability to overblow, i.e. no second octave notes.