Antique Whistle Advice Sought

[johnnyredgate]

[img][IMG]http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg305/zwartbles/IMG_0430_zpszij1f0gv.jpg[/img][/img]

Hello to you all
This is my first post. Hopefully you can see the image, which shows a whistle/keyed recorder/csakan given to me years ago. I think it is German (R Barth, Stuttgart is just visible on the body), early 20th century, ebonite with formerly nickel plated keys, and in the key of D. Has anyone got anything similar? I've had it re-padded and cleaned up and plays quite nicely in the low register. High register more difficult, possibly due to the fipple which was damaged when I got it. Is this the likely reason for the high register problems and might the fipple be repairable on an old ebonite instrument? I guess it would somehow need cutting out and a new one inserted?
John

[benhall.1]

Hi Johnny

I can't see your picture directly, and yet I can't for the life of me see what you're doing 'wrong' as it were. If I put the URL into my browser it comes up with the image. I think the next thing to try is for you to right click the image (or however flickr does it) and 'share' it.

In the meantime, that is one strange looking instrument, at least to me. I've seen piccolos/fifes that look almost exactly like that, and that makes me wonder if it was originally a piccolo/fife that has had a fipple head added later.

Do you know any of the history of the instrument?

[Mr.Gumby]

That should do it.

[ericgrey]

Would need a better picture ,but am 99% positive it is an African Blackwood flageolet.
Pretty standard item.

[Feadoggie]

I've had it re-padded and cleaned up and plays quite nicely in the low register. High register more difficult, possibly due to the fipple which was damaged when I got it. Is this the likely reason for the high register problems and might the fipple be repairable on an old ebonite instrument? I guess it would somehow need cutting out and a new one inserted?

I've blown the image up as much as I can and still see the labium with any definition. It appears, from what I can see, that the blade has been damaged/worn/modified to the point where the window is a bit oversized (from my experience). I could be wrong and I may be imagining things. The edge of the blade is not uniform looking from what I can see. Perhaps a more detailed photo of the blade and window could be helpful. And you have not offered photos of the windway or other pertinent bits, etc, etc.. But I obsess ....

A technician skilled in re-voicing or restoring recorders should be able to sort you out. They routinely replace the fipple/plugs on recorders. They will also be able to assess the playablility of the instrument overall. Fipple flutes is what they do! Worst case might be to have a new head made.

I cannpt say how common or uncommon these instruments are but they are out there in enough number that they are seen from year to year. They are likely more common in Europe than they are here in the US. I once imagined that they were a transitional design based on what French flageolets became during the latter 19th century. The keyless French flageolet seemed to have taken on a morphology somewhere between that of the recorder and the modern wooden whistle at some point. And of course keyed instruments were also made. Who knows for sure? I am no expert.

Cool instrument. ... and worth restoring too.

[Tommy]

[/url]

Hello to you all
This is my first post. Hopefully you can see the image, which shows a whistle/keyed recorder/csakan given to me years ago. I think it is German (R Barth, Stuttgart is just visible on the body), early 20th century, ebonite with formerly nickel plated keys, and in the key of D. Has anyone got anything similar? I've had it re-padded and cleaned up and plays quite nicely in the low register. High register more difficult, possibly due to the fipple which was damaged when I got it. Is this the likely reason for the high register problems and might the fipple be repairable on an old ebonite instrument? I guess it would somehow need cutting out and a new one inserted?
John

I agree with Feadoggie in that the window appears to long. Making for a strong lower octave and hard to reach second octave. Also could be a leak. Has the bore been treated with a good bore oil? Think I would try a reversible tweak with a laminate on the blade with sticky tac. As for the picture it had to many tags on each end. You should be abel to edit it by removing the black [img] at both ends.

[Mr.Gumby]

I have seen catalogues of that sort of instrument from Germany, first half of the 20th century. Mail order instruments. John Killourhy was always looking for that sort of thing During the 80s he even wrote to a Dresden based company he had a pre war catalogue of, in hopes they'd have a whistle for him. The Sweet Killourhy whistle is loosely based on the type. I never cared much for the sound of the one(s) John had.

[Added illustration of Sweet Killourhy type whistles:]

[johnnyredgate]

Thanks for the replies. It's definitely German being stamped R Barth Stuttgart. I was given it about 30 years ago by my brother who thinks he got it in a junk shop in Birmingham, but as I've had a 25 year break from flute and whistle playing it's been in a drawer for a long time. I always assumed it was blackwood but the repairer/re-padder thought it was some sort of polymer (so I guessed ebonite) based on the lack of some rings to protect the end grain from moisture ingress?? On this basis he decided not to oil it. Of course he could be wrong about this - I'll ask him again. It certainly has a different feel to it than my Bb fife. The re-padding has been done well.

I'm not expecting it to be rare or highly valuable although an identical instrument appeared on Ebay a couple of years ago at close to $300. I would expect professional repair to be quite expensive so would like to know what I've got. Barth was a supplier to the local royal court but that's obviously not to say they didn't make cheap instruments for the rabble.

I did wonder for a while if it was a modified flageolet (i.e. with that strange beak mouth piece removed) but it seems "keyed recorder" type instruments pitched in D were quite popular in Germany up until 1930s. I'll try a couple more pics.

[Feadoggie]

Think I would try a reversible tweak with a laminate on the blade with sticky tac.

Yes, I'm with Tommy. I think that'd be worth a shot. And it is a doable DIY project, and entirely reversible. If you do not know what that is I can try to describe it. It is not unlike installing a fake fingernail over the current ramp. You basically use a thin but stiff piece of plastic to overlay the top of the labium ramp and extend the edge of the blade down to where it optimally splits the air stream coming off the plug from the windway. Since it extends past the current edge it will narrow the window and place the edge lower in the air stream which should help with production of the high notes. It is a finicky bit of work to be sure. If you understand the basics of how a whistle works and makes the sounds it does then you should be able to visualize the solution and set the new blade where it needs to be. Placement of the edge is key to the success. The type of plastic you use can be whatever found material you have handy - yogurt cups/lids, guitar picks, Schweppes bottle bits, expired gift cards, high interest credit cards you might want to cut up, etc. - whatever will be thin but sufficiently stiff. Be patient. Take your time and try as many positions as you can until you think you have good tone and dynamics. Since you can use a very thin layer of poster putty as the adhesive, it is a temporary and adjustable fix. Here's a photo of a Susato whistle which has undergone a similar tweak.



Here's a thread which has some additional description of the tweak. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22900 Thank you, Bloomfield. Ignore the steps about cutting out or filing the existing ramp or blade. You will not want to cut out the old ramp and blade on your flageolet. Leave it as it is. You will just add a layer of plastic over top of it on the same plane and angle.

There are permanent fixes which can be applied as well. But it might be best to leave those to a seasoned woodwind technician.

Feadoggie

[Feadoggie]

Thanks for the new pictures. Yes, the blade is damaged. It needs attention. And it also appears that the plug has shrunk some judging from the space around the edges at the back of the beak. We can't see how things line up at the windway exit though. A proper repair would be to fit a new plug, re-build the ramp and blade, and re-voice.

But ... the shrunken plug can work in your favor in this case. It may have lowered the windway floor a tad. So you may be able to fit a temporary blade over the current ramp and have enough room to voice the instrument. So, I would still try that first. See what comes of it.

If, after you do the blade overlay, you end up with a whistle with poor low notes and a sweet high end, then the blade extends too far towards the windway exit, the window is too narrow and the blade needs to move back. But moving it back will move it up as well. It's all an exercise in geometry. That might require you to file the existing ramp down a bit - the thickness on your donor blade - and then test again. A very thin overlay works best. The window should end up being the same length as the lower end or right side of the existing blade (as you look at your detail picture). That appears to be the least damaged side of the blade. That's your target window dimension and blade position.

I am sure you can get this bird to sing again.

You may find this instrument from Barth to be interesting too. http://www.myuswarehouse.com/en/ebay-st ... 1056599786
If your head is constructed in a similar manner but with a direct blow windway, you may not have to replace the plug. Look through all those photos in the link. I do recall seeing one of these with both heads at in the last few years.



Feadoggie

[Tommy]

I always assumed it was blackwood but the repairer/re-padder thought it was some sort of polymer (so I guessed ebonite) based on the lack of some rings to protect the end grain from moisture ingress?? On this basis he decided not to oil it.

Hmmmm…… I must have had a senior moment when reading your first post and reading again see what I missed about it being ebonite.

Look inside of the wind way to see if the surface of the wood fipple is smooth or if the grain is raised. If it is raised the air may not be directed in a smooth sheet to the blade. Also look in the window at the end of the wood plug to see if it is square or rounded a bit. From the color it looks like it may not be the original. Replacing it with delrin is a simple upgrade.

[dunnp]

The ones like yours without the bone beak are sometimes called csakan.

I take it this is the eBay one you've seen:
http://m.ebay.it/itm/131041725694?_mwBanner=1

Though these are really just a flageolet without the beak rather than a true csakan which is a cool instrument with its own literature...and is longer and has a thumb hole.

Last year I bought a beaked one but otherwise very similar German flageolet.
Mine had the same problem. Brilliant first octave but too hard/ harsh unplayable second octave.
I just used blutac on the blade till I found a sweet spot where the octaves were in tune and the thing played but this flattened the whole thing.

If your head is detachable ? send it to someone to make a whole new head joint.

I got mine in eBay Canada for 40 quid as it was labelled recorder.
When I decided mine wasn't for me I resold it for 179 pounds as I noticed they tend to go into that region going by recent eBay listings. I had repadded it and fixed a crack in the bone beak (with baking soda and superglue) by that point.

[dunnp]

It really is just an English flageolet with a direct blown mouthpiece rather than beak/ chamber /sponge.

http://www.flageolets.com/articles/

As opposed to a French flageolet.

[johnnyredgate]

Thanks all again for the interesting and informative replies. Firstly, I'm back to thinking it's wood (with apologies to the repairer - he did surprise me with his opinion), comparing to my fife which is more or less completely smooth and shiny. A couple of close up photos seem to me to show wood grain. Do you agree?





Thanks for your suggestions regarding tweaking and I'll have a go once I can find some poster putty. I'll also find a recorder repairer to have a look at it. I'd like to avoid having a new head made.

I think the instrument is best called a flageolet, and indeed that is what I've called it for 30 years. Perhaps not having a beak mouthpiece made for a cheaper instrument. The head does detach and the tenon has been re-corked replacing red string as in Feadoggie's photo. The mouthpiece above the window clearly doesn't detach, the top metal ring being for decoration so it probably never had interchangeable mouthpieces. The different wood type of the plug seems to be standard at least on these Barth instruments. The plug edge at the window is still sharp and windway surface seems quite flat.

I have one further reference from the net referring to a very similar instrument.

http://www.rugs-n-relics.com/Brass/othe ... sakan.html

Crikey, those Sweetheart Kilhoury whistles are expensive. Glad I've kept hold of the flageolet all these years.

[Tommy]

Thanks all again for the interesting and informative replies.
The different wood type of the plug seems to be standard at least on these Barth instruments.
I'll also find a recorder repairer to have a look at it.

Yes they look the same, and appear to be cedar. You can find some contact info for recorder
makers here. viewtopic.php?f=20&t=101182