Pentatonic - an idle Sunday question

[talasiga]

Also, the following pentatonic scales (not relative of the major pentatonic) can be easily had on a whistle without half holing (I have put in brackets the diatonic mode you notionally gap to get it so that you can work out how to do it):

Hansdhwani: 1 2 3 5 7 (Ionian/Lydian)
Tilang: 1 3 4 5 b7 (Mixolydian)
*Durga: 1 3 4 6 b7 (Mixolydian)
Nag Soravi: 1 3 4 5 6 (Ionian/Mixolydian)
Malshri: 1 3 #4 5 7 (Lydian)
Hindol: 1 3 #4 6 7 (Lydian)
Shivaranjani: 1 2 b3 5 6 (Dorian)
Chandra Kauns: 1 b3 4 6 b7 (Dorian)
Bhopal Todi: 1 b2 b3 5 b6 (Phrygian)
Lilavati: 1 2 b3 5 b6 (Aeolian)

*not not to be confused with the other "Durga" Scale which Hans has described as "Scottish Pentatonic"

[pancelticpiper]

Interesting to see a Lydian pentatonic there (in India I presume?).
As best I can recall, all the Scottish and Irish Lydian tunes use a full scale (as in the Cabar Feidh/Rakish Paddy family).
I'll have to drag out my piobaireachd book and see if there are any pentatonic Lydian tunes there.

[benhall.1]

All the Scottish and Irish Lydian tunes? As far as I can recall, there's supposed to be only one, and that's Scottish (can't remember what it is at the moment ...). Rakish Paddy isn't in Lydian. It's Mixolydian. Normally Dmix.

[SteveShaw]

Heheh...

My 10,000th message and it has evil intent...

[benhall.1]

I thought you might appear Steve, but there's no such thing as Lydian apples.

[pancelticpiper]

I got out my Kilberry Book of Ceol Mor and the first fifteen tunes use four different Penatonic scales, one Hexatonic scale, and one full scale:
1 2 3 5 6 (four tunes) (the Amazing Grace scale)
1 2 3 4 5 (two tunes)
1 2 4 5 6 (two tunes)
1 2 4 5 b7 (two tunes) (we finally come to the supposedly typical Scottish flat 7th, and the scale referred to above as THE Scottish pentatonic scale)
Hexatonic: 1 2 3 4 5 6
Full: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

All of the above tunes seem to have a tonal centre of A, the drone note of the Highland pipes.
Then I started looking for tunes with a G tonal centre, which have a Lydian potential, and found:
G Pentatonic: 1 2 3 5 6 (in avoiding the 4th, it's not Lydian, but in one of the same scales found in the key of A above)
G Hexatonic: 1 2 3 5 6 #7 (interesting how the key of G gives a sharp 7th)
G Lydian: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 #7

There are loads of traditional Scottish reels, strathspeys, airs, and piobaireachds in that G Lydian scale. Cabar Feidh is one, which travelled to Ireland and became Rakish Paddy.

[hans]

1 2 4 5 b7 (two tunes) (we finally come to the supposedly typical Scottish flat 7th, and the scale referred to above as THE Scottish pentatonic scale)

Just to correct you: what I referred to above as Scottish pentatonic mode is a semitone step pattern of 23223, which translates to 1 2 4 5 6, or as an example a scale of DEGABD'. There is no seventh and no third (3-7-gap pentatonic).

[benhall.1]

The only "Cabar Feidh" that I know is virtually indistinguishable form Rakish Paddy and is in Dmix, not G Lydian. Do you have another example of these loads of tunes that you say are in G Lydian?

[I.D.10-t]

How does pentatonic effect playing compared to a 7 note scale? Is it different than just the same scale minus two notes? Does the phrasing change?

Practical exercise, Sakura, a Japanese song/tune, is a pentatonic tune has the A-B-C-E-F scale. Does it change from just a Minor?

Does lack of two notes change anything? Just intonation/equal temperament, etc.?

Other than having an instrument designed to play a pentatonic scale I don't understand the significance.

[highland-piper]

Does lack of two notes change anything? Just intonation/equal temperament, etc.?

Other than having an instrument designed to play a pentatonic scale I don't understand the significance.

From a melody player's perspective I don't think it does. I've been playing Mairi's Wedding for four years on highland pipes, and for about 10 years before that on fiddle and tin whistle, and I never realized it was pentatonic.

If you're playing a harmony part it can make a difference. Maybe. In the case of Mairi's, the lack of a third might lead one to believe that one could harmonize it as a minor key, but I'm pretty sure I've only ever heard it major.

[SteveShaw]

If it sounds Chinese it's pentatonic.

[jemtheflute]

How does pentatonic effect playing compared to a 7 note scale?

It can't. Doesn't have the wherewithal to effect anything. It might be able to affect it, though.....

[SteveShaw]

But would it lead to anyone developing effectations, jem?

[jemtheflute]

I doubt it. The effectiveness of affectations is rarely high. My attempts to affect anyone's (mis-)spelling habits will doubtless be ineffective.

[SteveShaw]

I'll affect to agree with you, in effect.