Comments needed on my playing

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bigsciota
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Re: Comments needed on my playing

Post by bigsciota »

GreenWood wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:16 pm ... that is what Sedi was doing though, he placed Loren's advice into doubt which Loren corrected.
The problem is that even a cursory Google to check would have confirmed that she does, indeed, play the whistle. It's not like I think it's some egregious error or something, I don't know Sedi but I appreciate what they post on the forum. It's just in this case they posted bad information, and in many ways I would consider that a breach of civility. It happens, not saying I or anyone else is innocent of ever doing this. But I can also see why Loren would be annoyed at being wrongly "corrected" like that, especially as someone who knows for sure that the information they're trying to helpfully offer to a beginner is accurate.
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Re: Comments needed on my playing

Post by Nanohedron »

GreenWood wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:17 pm I find it hard to imagine commentators being purposefully unkind to another's playing here, maybe I am being naive.
It wouldn't be tolerated; we have rules against that. Of course, critique is fine so long as it's helpful and directional. Simply saying it could be better won't do.
GreenWood wrote:What Loren says about people being over complimentary is sort of creepy ...
Yet it happens. Caveat emptor.
GreenWood wrote:... but I think anyone who posts their music has to be prepared for a mixed reaction also. Most of all, I think David was being friendly and looking to join in, and so that makes me feel sad if he doesn't post or feels shunned, or that his presentation has been outweighed somehow.
I share your regrets.
GreenWood wrote:[Ed.In ... and not that I took your "Yeah" as sarcasm.or similar, I was just emphasising my view...just in case you read it like that ... I forget that in some places possibilities of interpretation are different ]
No, I'm pretty straightforward. Have to be, here; Internet and all, you know. In my not-so-humble opinion, any mod worth their salt will avoid being cute and keeping people guessing (NOT the same as being humorless), so what you see is what you get: My "Yeah" was indeed the support it would appear to be. If I had meant it snarkily (an unlikely thing, and anyway my style's different), I would have used some kind of appropriately ironic-seeming smiley (like a wink or boggle or eek) to help the reader get that. I've noticed, though, that smiley literacy can be a bit hit-or-miss, so I could be misunderstood all the same; accordingly, I prefer my subtleties to be on the obvious side, if that makes any sense.

That said, I agree: When in doubt, ask. :)
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Re: Comments needed on my playing

Post by ytliek »

LongHairedDavid wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:15 am I am looking for tips as to how to improve and I thought that I could post a short sound file (The Mewrmaid) here for anyone to comment.
I hope you haven't run off so yes please do post your clip, however, be prepared for the varied responses. I'm hardly the one to give expert advice and the best that I can offer is to seek out a qualified teacher. Someone that plays the type of music you like and in the style you like to hear. With enough practice you'll develop your own style of playing. Most importantly keep your whistling fun and enjoy it all.

As for the thread drift... I enjoy you all whether comments are good, bad, or ugly and I'm glad that I toughed it out here on C&F Forums since my born on date. I lurk here every day and may comment less frequently as yes I'm on the above mentioned social media sites that Tyler stated. But, I rely on local in person teacher(s) and C&F mostly for the feedback that I need. At present I know that playing/practicing as much as possible is what gets me to where I want to be with whistling. And my primary focus is keeping the whistling fun in every situation!!

Look over to the right, that's me, a sixty-nine year old, penurious, tone deaf, newbie-ish, wannabee whistler with a lot more work to do. And I'm happy to be here.

And a parting glass... a simple quote from John Henry Newman: "do a little, but well."

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Re: Comments needed on my playing

Post by Peter Duggan »

bigsciota wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:15 pm One thing I will say, going back to my first post on this thread, is that while I understand the need for general civility and being nice, all too often on these sorts of forums people confuse the concepts of positivity and civility. On other forums as on this one, I have all too often seen advice that is at best ill-informed or misguided go unchallenged because people think that being nice is not saying anything negative. And I've also seen a lot of people giving advice who, while filled with the best of intentions, just don't have the knowledge or experience required to actually give that advice.
Couldn't agree more! Sadly, constructively-critical help or even just simple information sometimes gets interpreted as put-downs by its recipients or third parties while others dish out unchallenged 'wisdom' by the bucket load. So some who could help become reluctant to do so while others who can't continue on their merry way. But ask yourself one simple question before requesting or giving advice and most problems could be avoided:
  • When asking, are you prepared to consider the answer(s) you get?
  • When answering, do you know what you're talking about?
If the answer to either is 'no', just leave it.
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Re: Comments needed on my playing

Post by GreenWood »

@ Nanohedron

I just didn't want you to think I had thought you had said it in a sarky way, because when I reread the conversation in line that is how it looked for a moment :-) .

That is one of the beauties and difficulties of online text conversation. For example :

@ bigsciota

If Sedi was talking at a table, and Loren says "...there is Shannon Heaton..." and Sedi says "...but she plays the flute..." and Loren says "... and the whistle!" then there is no argument at all, it would be a "normal" conversation. So in text there is a loooot of room to interpret someone's attitude or intent... and to enter argument if so chosen. People are people and they have different expectations of others, of hierarchy or discipline, of formality or manner. As long as anyone is not being obviously unkind or persistently and unreasonably contradictory to another, then how anyone chooses to interpret anything is at least partly of their own making. :-)
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Re: Comments needed on my playing

Post by Katharine »

GreenWood wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:17 pmI find it hard to imagine commentators being purposefully unkind to another's playing here, maybe I am being naive. What Loren says about people being over complimentary is sort of creepy , but I think anyone who posts their music has to be prepared for a mixed reaction also. Most of all, I think David was being friendly and looking to join in, and so that makes me feel sad if he doesn't post or feels shunned, or that his presentation has been outweighed somehow.
And, of course, in the OP we are seeing someone who wants to make sure their playing is okay, and I would think we might encourage that since I see so much on trad-specific forums (here, The Session) about so-and-so who's trying to play and not doing it correctly-- which might well be because no one knowledgeable has ever listened to them and told them what needs to improve.

Nanohedron wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:53 am As I mentioned, websites like C&F were the only thing for social media before the big platforms inevitably emerged, and C&F remains enough for me; I find it more existentially manageable, and no part of my life really depends on - or would even be improved by - being so available to the whole world as on other, more global social media. No doubt others have a different take on it; a scientist or business owner would benefit from the connections. But what I am not is lonely enough to be interested in broadcasting my breakfast toast, nor does the world benefit from the opportunity to see it. Likewise I'm not voyeur enough to be interested in your breakfast toast. Sorry if that sounds cold, but there you have it. I need better, more authentic intimacy than distant, aseptic "Likes" or "Dislikes" - the very concept baffles and offends, for it mocks and degrades communication as I understand it. Yes, thanks to social media lives have even been saved, but we all know that the vast, vast majority of it comes nowhere close to that happy but all-too-rare outcome. When Twitter and Facebook popped up it didn't take a lot of heavy lifting for me to intuitively foresee the negative side, and that was enough for me to steer clear from the start. Maybe I'm a bit of a Hobbit.
I guess it depends on what one uses social media for. I was never sure of the point of "friending" every stranger on Facebook or being "available to the whole world," but when I joined, it was solely for the purpose of keeping up with old friends from high school and college who no longer lived near me. I had no interest in being "friends" with people I didn't know in real life, and in fact didn't even use my real name, largely so people I know or once knew who I had no interest in being "Facebook friends" with couldn't find me (and would occasionally receive "friend requests" from people I barely knew, and just ignored them), and my profile was as unavailable to the public as I could make it. So I'm largely insulated from some of the "ills" of social media that other people encounter.

Peter Duggan wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:31 pm Couldn't agree more! Sadly, constructively-critical help or even just simple information sometimes gets interpreted as put-downs by its recipients or third parties while others dish out unchallenged 'wisdom' by the bucket load. So some who could help become reluctant to do so while others who can't continue on their merry way. But ask yourself one simple question before requesting or giving advice and most problems could be avoided:
  • When asking, are you prepared to consider the answer(s) you get?
  • When answering, do you know what you're talking about?
If the answer to either is 'no', just leave it.
I guess I consider that if I ask for an opinion (or advice) on X or Y, it's on me to know before asking whether I can handle the opinions (advice) presented. Being rather thin-skinned, there are some things I just won't put out there for people, especially if they're people I don't know well/at all and can't know how they'll respond. I'm self-aware enough to know what I can and cannot handle and choose not to put myself into a situation I can't take-- and if I do ask, I understand that I may not like what I hear. And, I know-- it's easy to say "that's on the person that posts asking for the opinion" but not so easy in practice when they're in their thread later on, posting about being offended...
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Wha's like us?
Damn few--
And they're a' deid--
Mair's the pity.
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Re: Comments needed on my playing

Post by oleorezinator »

Slow it down.
Watch yer rhythm and phrasing.
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Re: Comments needed on my playing

Post by Mr.Gumby »

oleorezinator wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:48 pm Slow it down.
Watch yer rhythm and phrasing.
Yes, that pretty much is the stock advice. One size, fits all. :lol:

But right there you have the problem, for the poster who is given that advice to improve interaction is needed. You can explain question-response structure and proper rhythms until the cows come home in writing but what is really needed is interaction, examples and actual playing. All pretty much outside the forum format.

I would usually advice to tackle very simple tunes with a clear structure to practice in order to get a solid rhtyhm going. Simple stuff like the Laccaroe for reels. It's hard to get across that without solid rhythm you really have nothing. But then, how can you internalise the rhythms if you have only the internet to learn from. It's a conundrum. Listen to good playing (which means leave yertube alone, go for proper stuff) and then listen some more. That's a start anyway.

T: Laccaroe
R: reel
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
K: Edor
BEGE DEGA|BEGE d2BA|BEGE DEGA|BedB A2GA:|
Beed BAGA|(3Bcd ef gfed|Beed BAGA|(BedB A2GA|
Beed BAGA|(3Bcd ef ~g3a|bgaf gfed|egdB A2GA||
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Re: Comments needed on my playing

Post by pancelticpiper »

bigsciota wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:15 pm ...people confuse the concepts of positivity and civility...people think that being nice is not saying anything negative.
That's a conundrum in teaching.

I feel that if somebody is paying me to teach them it's my duty to get them to play better. That means pointing out anything that needs to be worked on.

Some people have come to me with fundamental issues that needed addressing, which I discuss with them, and they've responded by saying "this is exactly what I've been needing!"

Other people with fundamental issues have been put off. Did they think they were doing everything right? Did they only want kudos? In fact some had such deeply ingrained bad habits that the only way to fix them was to go back to the basics. When they found out that was my plan for them they stopped lessons and, I fear, never got the help they needed.

Here in the 1980s there was a guy, a good player, who only gave positivity to his students. He made his living playing and teaching and he didn't want to discourage them or drive them away. That teacher viewed it as being in his best interest to keep people at a beginner level forever. I knew people who had been his students for several years and never improved one bit.

I'm the opposite! I want students to get better, and get to the point where they don't need lessons, as quickly as possible. But that means being "negative" in the sense of addressing their bad habits.

So back to the topic, if somebody says "comments needed on my playing" I feel I should either 1) not say anything or 2) tell them what they could improve upon, as clearly as possible. I don't think anybody just wanting kudos would post in that way.
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Re: Comments needed on my playing

Post by retired »

Find a tune you like , one that has a few takes of it on youtube, learn the tune to your satisfaction, record your playing it, compare it to your favorite take on youtube, keep working at it, do this with a number of tunes - good luck !
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Re: Comments needed on my playing

Post by Mr.Gumby »

retired wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:41 pm Find a tune you like , one that has a few takes of it on youtube, learn the tune to your satisfaction, record your playing it, compare it to your favorite take on youtube, keep working at it, do this with a number of tunes - good luck !
In an earlier post I said:
Listen to good playing (which means leave yertube alone, go for proper stuff)
For youtube the same caveats apply that were expressed here earlier: there is an awful lot of stuff around put up by people who don't know their arse from their elbow. The advice to learn from a player well grounded in traditional music (which I assume is the goal) is given for a reason. These are generally simple tunes with a bit of effort anyone can learn to play the notes. To carry them off though, do them justice send make them shine, that isn't enough.

I remember being in a piping class after three years on the pipes where the teacher told me 'you have all the notes, now you'll have to start play the music'. Now there was a novel insight. I have been trying ever since (FWIW this occurred forty years ago). Playing traditional music, any traditional music, the fine detail is of extreme importance. Fine detail a beginner or anyone not well versed in that particular music may not even perceive. Detail in rhythms, ornamentation, phrasing. Learning from good players in a particular tradition embeds these details, often without the learner being aware of it and yet, after a few years it will sink in and the exposure will shine through. Learning the 'wrong' way makes it very hard to go back and rectify. These things need to be assimilated, by immersion in a particular music, played by players who 'have it'. Because that's the thing: you're not just learning tunes, you're learning a specific type of music, with all its intricacies and oddities. And doing so you will want to get an understanding of it that goes beyond 'learning a tune', an understanding that sees you develop a consistent, personal style of playing.

The internet is a bit of a curse for that sort of thing. Every man and his dog seems to want to 'share' their experience, even if they don't have any too speak of. A beginner will not be able to discern what is right and what is leading them up the garden path.

Youtube can be a helpful resource, but only if you know what to look for. I think a blanket recommendation to learn from youtube is not a good one for anyone trying to have a serious stab at this sort of stuff.
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Re: Comments needed on my playing

Post by GreenWood »

I'll agree and disagree.

YT is source for about all the Irish music I listen to. Irishtunesinfo has a great number of clips to gain a small taste of the variety of style, and to follow up in search on. However for both of those, my choice of listening is of the most original players, players who are clearly more than grounded in the music . I'm well aware that even there I'm missing three quarters of the good players and music being played or available . Even with very good "foreign" artists, there are very very few who could be mistaken for being out of Ireland I think. They almost all have a slightly different air or feel or sound to them. Anyway, you can learn that way... but just so much.

I remember once playing flamenco scales and improvising with them on guitar. A group of people were walking by and stopped outside the window to listen for a moment, all quiet. Then one pronounces out loud with a mixture of dissapointment and assertion "That isn't flamenco" , and they walk on. I was thankful, for though I didn't even think I was playing flamenco, for a moment I was aware of what he was looking for from the music. That is how to learn really, by being immersed in the culture at the same time.

Take the Bush Hornpipe by Josie McDermott I posted an early clip of, now I am playing it very close to his sound and style... but I will never be him playing it, and all that goes with that, and I accept that and don't try to be that, whatever that that would be.

I would not like to be a musician who plays cover versions either. Some are very good , and I remember occasionally having to check if the music coming from a restaurant or bar was recorded or live. It's practice but I don't think the idea is to be a recording.

So I take the way I learn as a form of familiarisation, and then play to my own contentment... but I know that I won't be playing like the Irish do...not really really .

That is ok though, I will be playing my own style, and playing it well eventually, whether taken as a personal interpretation or as an offshoot of Irish playing style.


However, if someone learns this way from a recording of a recording of a version of a version of a version of a version, then they are likely putting so much distance from where the music is actually coming from that they won't really be learning the music that much at all. It might be ok for very first steps, but after that anyone should be listening to the best of players to learn from if they want to get anywhere near.


And there you have it, one more set of advice... but at least I am saying "listen to them, not me".

:-)
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Re: Comments needed on my playing

Post by Narzog »

Mr.Gumby wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:34 am A beginner will not be able to discern what is right and what is leading them up the garden path.

Youtube can be a helpful resource, but only if you know what to look for.
This is an incredibly true statement, so I'm not disagreeing with it. A lot of the people I looked up to on YT when I started playing, I can now see are far from perfect players.

The reason I'm posting, is that people are going to use youtube. Its a free resource everyone has access to. I don't know any professional whistle players. I've never even met a whistle player. Someone like me, is going to end up on youtube. So to me the best option would be to tell people who the best players on youtube are, and to try and learn from them, along with any other good non YT source recommendations. Because yes, theres a lot of really bad covers and teachers on youtube haha. but the good ones, are an excellent free resource anyone can have access to. and many whistle players, are just someone who thinks the instrument looks fun and picks up a $10 gen/feadog/clarke on amazon. They are going to take the free youtube learning route, at least from the start.

My view on comparing oneself to youtube covers: is that if you are better than the covers that suck you at least hopefully dont suck. Then the goal is to get an ear for whats good, and to then try and be that. Because in music theres never a magical tier where you are all of a sudden "good". People who dont know an instrument can think bad playing is good, so some people want to just be good enough to seem good to them. So it depends on who the persons target audience is. A lot of people dont care to be the best, and end up settling. Luckily and sadly for me, my standards are very high so I have to keep getting better haha.
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Re: Comments needed on my playing

Post by Nanohedron »

Narzog wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:35 pm I've never even met a whistle player. Someone like me, is going to end up on youtube. So to me the best option would be to tell people who the best players on youtube are, and to try and learn from them, along with any other good non YT source recommendations.
And that's why we have the No whistle Youtube thread? Well then! sticky. I haven't checked on it in a while, but if I know you guys, opinions will not be held back. Gotta keep the newbies from going astray, after all. :wink:

And I agree that in Trad, at least, you can't overstate the importance of listening and hearing. Further, I would strongly urge anyone to listen not only to players of their own instrument, but to hear how players of other instruments approach the Trad vernacular - IOW, listening not just for entertainment. It can only broaden you.

The first time I came to appreciate banjo was on a cassette recording (there's a blast from the past). It was a reel in a minor mode, excellently played, and the player used the mode and arrangement to advantage so that it unmistakably expressed the flavor of anger. Real, raw anger that someone knows and has carried, not cartoon anger. Brilliant stuff. Blew me away to the point that I still carry the impression with me. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that when you come across times like that, it's a huge bonus to your head. For a musician, that can never hurt: possible stuff for the tool box. Leave no stone unturned.
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