Tuning the Untunable

The Ultimate On-Line Whistle Community. If you find one more ultimater, let us know.
Post Reply
bigsciota
Posts: 519
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:15 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8

Tuning the Untunable

Post by bigsciota »

We've had a bit of a cold snap here in New England, and recently the temperature dipped below 0º Fahrenheit for about 24 hours or so. I have a Chieftain non-tunable whistle that I usually keep in the car, for busking and the odd tune while waiting around. Normally, the bell note is pretty much spot-on Bb. But I played a few notes on a lark last night, and found that I was now the proud owner of an A whistle! At least until it warmed up...

So they ARE tunable after all. :lol:
User avatar
an seanduine
Posts: 1997
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:06 pm
antispam: No
Location: just outside Xanadu

Re: Tuning the Untunable

Post by an seanduine »

Try-out the carbon dioxide belch 'method'. :lol:

Bob
Not everything you can count, counts. And not everything that counts, can be counted

The Expert's Mind has few possibilities.
The Beginner's mind has endless possibilities.
Shunryu Suzuki, Roshi
fatmac
Posts: 1149
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:47 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Kickbiker - at over 70!
:lol:
....................................................................
....................................................................

Re: Tuning the Untunable

Post by fatmac »

Ooh.... I like an 'A'...... but I'm not going to stand around in minus Farenheight with a Bb whistle -- I'll stick to buying the 'A's. :lol:
Keith.
Trying to do justice to my various musical instruments.
PB+J
Posts: 1306
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:40 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm a historian and the author of "The Beat Cop:Chicago's Chief O'Neill and the Creation of Irish Music," published by the University of Chicago in 2022. I live in Arlington VA and play the flute sincerely but not well

Re: Tuning the Untunable

Post by PB+J »

So wait it got LOWER in pitch when it got cold?

Shouldn't it have gone up to B or C? I'm just thinking metals contract in the cold and expand in the heat, so it should have gotten shorter and narrower.

either way below zero f is no joke!
User avatar
ecadre
Posts: 273
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:59 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Location: Coventry, England

Re: Tuning the Untunable

Post by ecadre »

PB+J wrote:So wait it got LOWER in pitch when it got cold?

Shouldn't it have gone up to B or C? I'm just thinking metals contract in the cold and expand in the heat, so it should have gotten shorter and narrower.

either way below zero f is no joke!
If metals like aluminium expanded and contracted that much over relatively small temperature ranges, then modern life would be impossible. A Bb whistle contracting to a B or a C is not a goer.

It's to do with air temperature and the speed of sound. The speed of sound is lower at lower temperatures, and the pitch will drop. The air in the whistle is more dense (the particles are moving slower) at lower temperatures meaning that it takes more energy to move its mass. At higher temperatures there is less mass and the pitch rises. Aluminium conducts heat well, so it takes a little while to warm up the air column properly.
User avatar
pancelticpiper
Posts: 5298
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Playing Scottish and Irish music in California for 45 years.
These days many discussions are migrating to Facebook but I prefer the online chat forum format.
Location: WV to the OC

Re: Tuning the Untunable

Post by pancelticpiper »

PB+J wrote:So wait it got LOWER in pitch when it got cold?
I'm just thinking metals contract in the cold and expand in the heat, so it should have gotten shorter and narrower.
All wind instruments go flatter in the cold AFAIK.

Yes shorter is sharper, but narrower is flatter (more impedence from a narrower bore).

If the metal contracts the same in all directions, that amount of contraction is a far larger percentage of the bore ID than it is of bore length (around 24 times greater, I think).
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
User avatar
benhall.1
Moderator
Posts: 14797
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm a fiddler and, latterly, a fluter. I love the flute. I wish I'd always played it. I love the whistle as well. I'm blessed in having really lovely instruments for all of my musical interests.
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe

Re: Tuning the Untunable

Post by benhall.1 »

pancelticpiper wrote:
PB+J wrote:So wait it got LOWER in pitch when it got cold?
I'm just thinking metals contract in the cold and expand in the heat, so it should have gotten shorter and narrower.
All wind instruments go flatter in the cold AFAIK.

Yes shorter is sharper, but narrower is flatter (more impedence from a narrower bore).

If the metal contracts the same in all directions, that amount of contraction is a far larger percentage of the bore ID than it is of bore length (around 24 times greater, I think).
My understanding is that the contraction/expansion of the metal is an almost insignificant factor and that the temperature of the air column is by far the most important factor, as described by ecadre above.
User avatar
ecadre
Posts: 273
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:59 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Location: Coventry, England

Re: Tuning the Untunable

Post by ecadre »

benhall.1 wrote:
pancelticpiper wrote:
PB+J wrote:So wait it got LOWER in pitch when it got cold?
I'm just thinking metals contract in the cold and expand in the heat, so it should have gotten shorter and narrower.
All wind instruments go flatter in the cold AFAIK.

Yes shorter is sharper, but narrower is flatter (more impedence from a narrower bore).

If the metal contracts the same in all directions, that amount of contraction is a far larger percentage of the bore ID than it is of bore length (around 24 times greater, I think).
My understanding is that the contraction/expansion of the metal is an almost insignificant factor and that the temperature of the air column is by far the most important factor, as described by ecadre above.
Expansion and contraction is proportionate, so so the ratio of length to width will stay the same.

As benhall says, the contraction/expansion of the metal compared to the temperature of the air column is insignificant.

This page gives the calculation for the linear expansion of a 2700 millimetre bar of aluminium from -20 to +30 degrees centigrade. It's 3mm.

https://www.alumeco.com/knowledge-techn ... -expansion

Incidentally, I noticed that the thermal expansion coefficient of ABS plastic is around 4 to 5 times that of brass, which is probably the real reason that dipping the head of Generation and other similar cheap whistles in hot water helps in removing the ABS plastic head.
User avatar
ecadre
Posts: 273
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:59 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Location: Coventry, England

Re: Tuning the Untunable

Post by ecadre »

I decided to do a little search on the matter, and if you don't believe me, how about a Professor of Physics at the University of Virginia :D

http://www.physicscentral.com/experimen ... 0506014548
Tyler DelGregg
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:10 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Whistles are fun, whistles are charming, whistles sound nice, whistles are affordable, whistles make us smile, whistles make dogs bark, and whistles upset some neighbors.
Location: Middle of Virginia

Re: Tuning the Untunable

Post by Tyler DelGregg »

Very interesting article by the UVA professor. It never occurred to me that much air action took place inside a flute; it's invisible but we hear the effects. My aluminum whistles (Anak) have hardwood heads and aluminum bodies, so there must be some interesting wood + aluminum voodoo going on there. If I'm compelled to play outdoors in near 0 degree F conditions, I think I'll pull out my Susatos.
Post Reply