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 Post subject: Re: Question Concerning CransPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:16 pm
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Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:45 am
Posts: 14831
Location: San Diego, CA
Mr.Gumby wrote:
Quote:
But honestly, crans and hornpipes often don't mix very well

I know, the problem with generalizations.

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 Post subject: Re: Question Concerning CransPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:22 pm

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 1531
Location: the Back of Beyond
Quote:
I know, the problem with generalizations

It's like saying rolls don't work in hornpipes.

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 Post subject: Re: Question Concerning CransPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:50 pm

Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 4:00 pm
Posts: 15759
MTGuru wrote:
jim stone wrote:
It's an e cran (though played on a Bb flute) as described above

No, Jim, actually it's not. What you're playing there is simply not a cran, though you might think it is. That's why it sounds odd.

You're playing: |E2 E/G/A/G/ E2|

First ... Your fingers are not coming back down on the E's before beginning the next cuts. So you're actually missing the cuts entirely. In your figure, and with the R1/L3 there should be 5 E's, not 3: |E2 E/{G}E/{A}E {G}E2|. And since the first E of the bar is repeated, you'd probably want to cut into the first E of the cran as well: |E2 {A}E/{G}E/{A}E {G}E2|.

And now, with all those repeated A and G cuts, it's clear why a 3-finger cran may sound better: |E2 {A}E/{G}E/{F}E {A}E2|.

Second ... You're also trying to start the cran on the off-beat (2nd, weak beat) of the hornpipe. And that just doesn't work here. Crans will generally start on a strong beat. So you could do something like, using your pattern: |E/{G}E/{A}E {G}EF E2|.

But honestly, crans and hornpipes often don't mix very well, and I'd avoid it altogether here.

Third ... Injecting a breath as you do after the first beat of the bar destroys the figure entirely anyway. You never want to breathe like that within the ending cadence of a hornpipe phrase, much less if there's a cran. That you've ended up with a 2 beat breath phrase should be a clue.

Finally ... Grey Larson gives some pretty wacky advice in his book. A 3 finger cran can be tricky on a high D, but it's perfectly unproblematic on the high E. Spreading a cran over two hands tends to be more dexterous, by avoiding quick repetition of the same finger. And it's never advisable to follow rote advice, whatever the source. You need to work out what works on your instrument, and for playing a given specific figure depending on what comes before and after in the melody.

Hope that helps.

P.S. I would say that your playing has improved since the last time I watched one of your vids.

I am in the midst of purging myself for a colonoscopy in the morning, and truly cannot follow most of this.
It may be that, in the particular context in which I played it and the way that I executed it, what I played
was not a cran. Certainly I don't think this is a typical use of a cran. There was, anyhow, a certain effect I was after on my particular instrument, to suit that melody (not an Irish hornpipe),I got it, I think, and I'm glad I did.
Thanks for your kind words and the effort to enlighten me. I may make more sense of it when cognition
returns. Meanwhile perhaps others posting videos of their crans would help the discussion.

Also I meant to illustrate the sort of cran that Grey teaches in lessons, which I had described in the abstract
above the link to my video. If my video doesn't illustrate his cran, nothing particularly follows about his way of doing a cran, which I do think is worth checking out.

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 Post subject: Re: Question Concerning CransPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:42 pm

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:52 am
Posts: 750
Location: Glasgow
I am sure there are crans in my videos in my signature including e crans.
Not my best playing or trying to illustrate or think about crans but theyll be there.

Thinking about them confuses me into to doing things maybe I wouldnt do all the time.

I notice sometimes there is no f sharp in there,
More often than not there is an a

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 Post subject: Re: Question Concerning CransPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:35 pm

Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:55 pm
Posts: 204
Location: Seattle WA
I'm still thinking about the colonoscopy.

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 Post subject: Re: Question Concerning CransPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:45 pm

Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 4:00 pm
Posts: 15759
Me too...

Thanks, dunnp, for the music, which I've always enjoyed.

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 Post subject: Re: Question Concerning CransPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:15 pm

Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:06 pm
Posts: 665
Good Luck, Jim.
The purging process for a colonoscopy is miserable. . .but it always calls to mind an old SNL "Ad", for "Colon-Blow Laxative", which in turn starts me giggling. . .and then I always recall an old joke about a new kind of laxative, "Feather-Lax", which "tickles the. . . out of you!"
Seriously, you have my sympathy, Jim.

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Question Concerning CransPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:52 pm

Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:37 pm
Posts: 180
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Well folks, I really appreciate the feedback, I'm working on all of the suggestions with the exception of the Colonoscopy purge; however, there are those who have suggested that a good purge might improve my playing. Jim, I wish you all of the best---last time I went through that process, I found my high school ring and the keys to a 1957 Buick.

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 Post subject: Re: Question Concerning CransPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:47 am

Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 4:00 pm
Posts: 15759
I posted this in 2002, the date of my last colonoscopy:

'Lately when my trainer, Davy Gamble, bounces a medicine ball off my gut while I do situps, something inside me emits a tone of considerable purity and sweetness. Finally I brought an electronic tuner to the gym--the note is a C, spot on.

I decided to have it checked out. Dr.
Weintraub, an expert endoscopist at Barnes
Jewish Hospital, performed the procedure,
assisted by two muscular nurses, Gertrude
and Brunhilde, who held me in place as the
scope navigated my innards.

"I see something up ahead," Dr. Weintraub
announced, peering at the TV monitor. "It looks like a tube, with four,
no, six holes. There's a red mouthpiece
and a logo: 'G' 'E' 'N'..."

"I know!" I exclaimed. "It was the philosophy and neuroscience picnic. I was
guzzling beer and playing my high G whistle
at the same time. Later I couldn't find the
whistle..."

"Well, it's lodged in your duodenum pretty
good" Dr. Weintraub said. "I can't budge it
with the scope."

"I don't want it out, Doc. I want to control
the pitch."

"Maybe we can arrange that much.
and swivel your hips. Good! Brunhilde,
punch Professor Stone in the solar plexus,

Whack!

Tweet!

"That was a D!"

"OK, now reverse, the left leg over the
right one.."

Whack!

Tweet!

"That was an A! Thanks, Doc! Let's
try for the second octave!"

"This is one for the journals, alright."

So there you have it. My digestive
system now doubles as a bagpipe. When
Davy bounces the ball off my gut I can
play B.B. King tunes, which really cracks
him up. Also I can sing duets with myself.
I do have to gyrate my hips obscenely, but, hey,
so did Elvis.

Next week Dr. Weintraub, Gertrude,
Brunhilde and I are going to work
on crans.'

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 Post subject: Re: Question Concerning CransPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:06 am

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:15 am
Posts: 728
Location: County Clare
My take on it is that ornaments are most often rhythmic rather than melodic.

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 Post subject: Re: Question Concerning CransPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:10 am

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2003 2:17 pm
Posts: 5223
Location: Somewhere Off-Topic, probably
Mr.Gumby wrote:
Quote:
But honestly, crans and hornpipes often don't mix very well

indeed!

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 Post subject: Re: Question Concerning CransPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:28 am

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2003 2:17 pm
Posts: 5223
Location: Somewhere Off-Topic, probably
Julia Delaney wrote:
My take on it is that ornaments are most often rhythmic rather than melodic.

IMO and from what I've learned, rhythm is what a good cran is really all about. This is from a piping perspective, but in my experience it applies to flute, too -- it doesn't really matter which fingers you use (and sometimes you want/need to use different fingers for flute or whistle, or for a smoother or "poppier" cran effect). It's whether you get the rhythm right. And of course, you have to have your cuts squared away, no fannying about trying to guess which finger should do what; your fingers need to KNOW. (That's where the drilling comes in.) From there it's basically a matter of fitting the cran to the note length. I tend to cut into the first D and hold it a shade longer when I want a longer cran, and I don't cut into the D when I want a shorter one (I call it a "cranlet"). If you want to get massive with it copy Matt Molloy's double and triple crans (I think he does it on the Humours of Ballyloughlin); the Planxty piper Liam O'Flynn is also good listening source for giant crans. O'Flynn's rhythm makes crans very clear, I think.

I defer to Mr. Gumby's vastly greater experience in this matter, but that's how it's been explained to me over the last few years of piping and it seems to be working OK for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Question Concerning CransPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:07 am

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:52 am
Posts: 750
Location: Glasgow
There is a lot of good stuff in this thread. nicely put Cathy.

Jim I had a go at your tune today and maybe can record it tomorrow its too late here now to annoy the neighbors. I can fit crans in on the es and ds and replace some high d phrases with crans , no problem.
But if I was playing it more often then not I might tap or cut them but then again Ive been trying to rid myself of over ornamenting tunes

Here is the setting I found perhaps slightly but not far off of yours:

X:1109
T:Bang Up Hornpipe. TLY.083
M:C
L:1/8
S:Wm.Tildesley,Swinton,Lancs.1860s.
R:Hornpipe
O:England.
A:Lancashire.
H:1860.
Z:vmp.Taz Tarry.
K:D
AG| FDFA dAFA| GBed cBAG| FAdc BAGF| E2E2E2 AG|!
FDFA dAFA| GBed cBAG| FAdA FAEG| F2 D2D2:|!
|:cd| edcB AGFE| FDEF GABc| defd gfed| c2 A2A2 AG|!
FDFA dAFA| GBed cBAG| FAdA FAEG| F2 D2D2:|]

Simple tune, might throw a g sharp in the second part.
And cran f sharp as well.
I wish I could abc ify crans but am not that clever with writing things out.
i was experimenting with cutting from B on down the scale and back up, interesting,
But for me I still think analyzing it has done more harm then good.

Keep at it Jim one day the crans will pop.

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 Post subject: Re: Question Concerning CransPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:48 am

Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 4:00 pm
Posts: 15759
'Keep at it Jim one day the crans will pop.'

But I am entirely happy with what I played there, call it 'cran' or not. I leave that to wiser heads.

Anyhow I survived the procedure, I think. I declined the anaesthetic (they looked at me
with a sort of amazed horror), and I have a very personal suggestion for people
in that situation. Don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Question Concerning CransPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:52 am

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2003 2:17 pm
Posts: 5223
Location: Somewhere Off-Topic, probably
jim stone wrote:
I declined the anaesthetic (they looked at me
with a sort of amazed horror), and I have a very personal suggestion for people
in that situation. Don't.

Crans and colonoscopies without anesthesia, man oh man. From here on out I'm calling you "Iron Jim Stone."

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Deja Fu: The sense that somewhere, somehow, you've been kicked in the head exactly like this before.

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